Gilf Kibir kidnappings

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by Fastship

The end of this episode raises an interesting moral, philosophical point for me...

An interesting discussion, however could I suggest to start a new thread on this. Most people read this thread to get information on the event and the subsequent regulations for the Gilf, the various points of view on this question will quickly clutter the thread with off-topic responses.

[andrasz]

As we have become accustomed to during the events, the picture emerging in the international press on the release of the group is rather different than the official line. Apparently (as told by the victims) the group was all of a sudden let go after the attackers received a phone call, all 19 in one vehicle (the other three being taken by the ambushers), and drove some 200 miles north to the Egyptian border. They finally met some Egyptian military around Eight Bells... Clearly there was no military action whatsoever. The complete lack of any official statement from Germany, plus the circumstances of the release strongly suggests that a ransom was paid.

At the moment it is very questionable whether we may believe any of the Sudanese and Egyptian statements regarding gun battles and casualties.

As it is the Eid now following the end of Ramadan with Egypt practically shut down, I don't expect to have any info on the future of travel to the region until next week.

[Fastship]

Originally Posted by andrasz

An interesting discussion, however could I suggest to start a new thread on this. Most people read this thread to get information on the event and the subsequent regulations for the Gilf, the various points of view on this question will quickly clutter the thread with off-topic responses.

Fair enough.

[TonyTea]

Just one last thought - if a ransom was paid, which certainly seems more likely as the story becomes clearer (the Italian Govt are notorious for paying ransoms...) then the Gilf problem is far from sorted...

While the Egyptians may well have wanted to give the impression that they don't put up with any of that sort of thing, it's becoming more probable that on this occasion cash changed hands, and that will only encourage others!
Tony

[Richard Washington]

It looks like there are at least 2 possibilities:
1) ransom was paid, call came through to the bandits to confirm and the 19 were set free to make their own way back to Egypt. 19 in a car - hellava way to see the Libyan desert!

2) car with bandits was shot up whilst off fetching water/food/fuel/ransom, call came through to the rest of the bandits to confirm the hit and the 19 were set free as a result.

The tourists may not actually know which of these happened. Some reports say there were 40 or more bandits. But if the tourists can confirm that one car was away at the time, along with 4-6 bandits, then (2) may have happened.

Neither of these events makes for a particularly safe Gilf. The key driver is the instability in the Sudan/Chad region. This, coupled with the knowledge that tourists/vehicles/money are up for grabs in southern Egypt, makes it unlikely that this is the last episode. Some of the 40 youngsters involved will probably be plotting another hit - with all the lessons learnt. On the other hand, Egypt may want to deploy a presence along the remote southern border and equip the $100 per day soldier-lad that has to come along with more than a sun hat.

[andrasz]

One of the best reports so far:
‘I thought this was the end’ - The National Newspaper

[Richard Washington]

Are there any details about the kidnappings which have emerged in recent weeks? After the 2003 kidnappings in Algeria were over, a load of detail was released. While most of this was interesting, especially to people who travel in the Sahara, it was strategically important in being able to figure out what the risks were to future travel in the region. So I'm wondering if anyone has detail on how well set-up the bandits were, what kind of resouces they had to hand in N Sudan, what the leadership was like and so on.

[3M]

Few points about the bandits from the story of Mr. Ibrahim guide and owner of tourism company on an interview to local TV channel in Egypt :

- they were about 40 of them
- some of them were of young age around 15 years old
- he felt they were kind of naive and not professional at all .
- they speak very few Arabic words and one traveler said their mother tongue sounds like something he heard from Tawarg in other parts of the Sahara
- they are not religiously fanatics and just after the money
- they work in these gangs for maybe 100 $ a month and there is nothing to do except work for these gangs in their home .
- near the end they wanted to go home to attend the feast after Ramadan

a personal impression I got that Mr. Ibrahim has done very good job in dealing with them and managed to send gps coordinates of their location many times during communications with authorities .

at the end the 19 kidnapped got into one land cruiser and traveled 300 or more km to Egypt border without a spare tire .

latest news the area is now open for travel and permits are given as usual , some reports say now there are permanent check points in the Gilf kebir area !

Mahmoud Mohareb

[Roman]

Hello all,

While the situation in N Mali and Mauri seems to deteriorate, I am glad to report that the area of Al Uwainat and south of Gilf Kebir in Egypt's Western Desert appears to be a bit calmer than last year.

Two weeks ago we returned from a trip there. Apart from the usual smuggling activity, there's not much to report on the security front.

It could be because the Egyptan army has started monitoring activities in that area. There are now two army outposts (one at N 22.13643°, E 25.80658 °, and another near Karkur Talh at N 22.00028°, E 25.28928 °). The army even allowed us to spend a night inside Karkur Talh, something considered quite risky last year.

But it could be also down to the fact that we were one of the very first groups travelling in the Western Desert this autumn. Maybe the guys having their bases in Chad haven't started the hunting season yet.

The officer at one of the posts event told us that the army was sending from the north a dozen cars to patrol the borded area, so if we see a fleet of cars heading our way we should stop and say hello rather than run away. Luckily, we never never had a chance to be faced with such a hard decision.

While army presence south of Gilf Kebir is rather unprecedented, it should not be taken too seriously. From what we saw , this is a rather feeble attempt by the Egyptians to control their southern border.

[andrasz]

Just returned myself from Uweinat, the area around the mountain was pretty quiet, the closeness of the checkpoint apparently does dampen illicit activity there. Few signs of visitors, apparently most operators are still concerned about going that close to Sudan. (Trip account will be up on my website soon, the name of which I dare not utter here...)

I did feel uncomfortable around Wadi Sora though (no Egyptian military presence there), plenty of smuggler tracks and we saw several single vehicle tracks with XS pattern - definitely not friendly patrols...

The post near Uweinat has two (!) vehicles, so definitely no serious patroling out there. I would not reccommend driving up to any unknown vehicles - better to stay on the shady side of the street. Did hear of a rumor that the army did shoot up one toiurist vehicle which fled, having not recognised that the 'pursuers' were the army. Fortunately no injuries...

All in all, looks quiet, but still a lot of tension and edginess from the side of the authorities, probably not totally without reason ...

[Roman]

Hi Andras,

Glad to hear you had a safe trip, too.

Few signs of visitors, apparently most operators are still concerned about going that close to Sudan.

The operators would say there's not enough people willing to risk going there ...

I did feel uncomfortable around Wadi Sora though (no Egyptian military presence there), plenty of smuggler tracks and we saw several single vehicle tracks with XS pattern - definitely not friendly patrols...

We also did see same zig-zagging tracks, and between the Clayton Crater and Wadi Sora, about 40km north of the Aquaba Pass, we found abandoned personal belongings, possibly by robbers who chucked away what they had no use for. Another, rather curious, find in that area was a great many empty 1/2 litre water bottles.

The post near Uweinat has two (!) vehicles, so definitely no serious patroling out there.

When we were there they had only one, and it even wasn't running. I was wondering if the empty barrells along the piste were laid down by the smugglers to help the soliders stay on track :-)

Did you meet Herr Doctor Rudolph Kuper, occupying the Foggini Cave with his team? The way he had their camp set up near the cave made them a bit exposed and vulnerable, so we are wondering if he later moved it or just decided he was perfectly safe in his ivory tower.

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by Roman

We also did see same zig-zagging tracks, and between the Clayton Crater and Wadi Sora, about 40km north of the Aquaba Pass, we found abandoned personal belongings, possibly by robbers who chucked away what they had no use for. Another, rather curious, find in that area was a great many empty 1/2 litre water bottles.

You saw the traces of the refugee smugglers - the Western Gilf has become one of the main throughfares for smuggling people - mainy Somali & Eritreans - to Italy. The Libyans have stepped up their patroling (the EU gave them heaps of money to do so), so the trade shifted east where there is no control whatsoever. Possibly the kidnappings and robberies were a 'portfolio diversification' from this unscrupulous lot.

Originally Posted by Roman

Did you meet Herr Doctor Rudolph Kuper, occupying the Foggini Cave with his team? The way he had their camp set up near the cave made them a bit exposed and vulnerable, so we are wondering if he later moved it or just decided he was perfectly safe in his ivory tower.

Met Rudolph in Dakhla on our way out, the team was gone by the time we passed by, but all fine from what I've heared.