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  #1  
Old 2 Apr 2013
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selling a bike in russia (how to do it correctly)

Hi, I am travelling this summer from Ulaan Bataar to Magadan. Want to sell my bike in Magadan or Vladivostok if possible.

Did anymore already sold his bike in Russia? Is it complicated? What should i be aware of. I want to come out clean, with the bike stamped out of my passport.

I will enter from Mongolia with an ATA Carnet. (THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE, THE SHIPPING COMPANY TOLD ME SO, BUT AS I ASKED THE OFFICE IN SWITZERLAND THEY TOLD ME THAT I CAN'T DO IT FOR A VEHICULE WITH NUMBER PLATE, AS WRITTEN BY CHRIS)

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Last edited by Zimi; 10 Apr 2013 at 18:32.
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  #2  
Old 2 Apr 2013
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Sounds like trouble

You come in with a carnet, and leave the country with an opened carnet ?

I do not know how they handle that in russia, but i have done a lot of carnets for various reasons in different countries.

no one likes this way..
Except, when you know that you have to pay the fees for customs, this means, that you will lose your deposit or your bank guarantee
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  #3  
Old 3 Apr 2013
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Response posted in
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ling-ata-69693

Basically it can be done correctly - and have a closed off carnet. But YOU need to contact the country customs people before you sell ... and I'd do that in the planning stages.
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  #4  
Old 3 Apr 2013
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The only way to do it without troble, when you close the carnet.

How ever that works in russia
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  #5  
Old 6 Apr 2013
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thank you guys for your information. I will try to contact russian customs to know more about it.
I will continue the update information in the other post (in trip paperwork)

And I will contact the shipping company again about this, but the reason they use the ATA carnet for Mongolia is to avoid paying this 21% tax that you have almost no chance to get back even if you send the bike back from Mongolia.
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  #6  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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If I decide not to do an ATA carnet and pay the import tax in Mongolia, would this make it easier to sell it in Russia?
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  #7  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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And how do you think that you bring it back to russia?

it will be in your papers again imported when you drive into russia again

same procedure again

Maybe its easier in mongolia, you can try to talk to a customs officer with some pocket money
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Old 8 Apr 2013
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kausmong1,

if I import it in Mongolia are you really sure that i need to do the same procedure in Russia?

when I travelled overland, I had my greencard and no country, neither Russia or any of the central asia made problems at the border.

For Mongolia I was explained that this import tax is only paid when the bike comes in a crate, and not through the border.

So I will enter Russia by the road, why would they ask me anything if I don't have any carnet?
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  #9  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimi View Post
If I decide not to do an ATA carnet and pay the import tax in Mongolia, would this make it easier to sell it in Russia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by klausmong1 View Post
And how do you think that you bring it back to russia?

it will be in your papers again imported when you drive into russia again

same procedure again

Maybe its easier in mongolia, you can try to talk to a customs officer with some pocket money

It is illegal for a Russian to legally register your bike if the Russian import tax hasn't been paid.

I would think very seriously about not attempting to bribe a Mongolian border official.

If Mongolia import tax has been paid, there's nothing stopping you legally selling the bike in Mongolia.

Zimi:
We have communicated in the past ref the ATA Carnet. The London Chamber of Commerce says the following:

A carnet may not be used for:
  • goods to be sold or hired out abroad for financial gain
  • perishable or consumable items (as they would not normally be re-exported)
  • goods which are temporarily exported for processing or repair
  • goods on which a CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) refund will be claimed
  • goods used as a means of transport
  • the exportation of unaccompanied goods, or by post
  • foreign goods temporarily imported into the E.C.under a Customs Temporary Concession
  • equipment to be used for the construction, repair or maintenance of buildings or for earthmoving and like projects


In the past I looked into the ATA Carnet after talking to Andreas Koenig at paneuropa.de He told me what he's now telling you. I thought he was wrong, but I'll stand corrected if you get your bike into Mongolia on a Swiss ATA carnet. I'll also buy you a . Good luck!
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  #10  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?

If I'm correct, you plan to send yours back home. How do you plan to get the import taxe from Mongolia back? Andreas told that it's very difficult and time consuming.

If I do it, I will think about not getting it back. If I do it will be a bonus, but I don't believe it. Especially if I don't come back to Mongolia.

The best would be to be able to get this back at the border when I exit Mongolia, but Andreas told me that it's impossible.
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Old 8 Apr 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimi View Post
Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?

If I'm correct, you plan to send yours back home. How do you plan to get the import taxe from Mongolia back? Andreas told that it's very difficult and time consuming.

If I do it, I will think about not getting it back. If I do it will be a bonus, but I don't believe it. Especially if I don't come back to Mongolia.

The best would be to be able to get this back at the border when I exit Mongolia, but Andreas told me that it's impossible.
What I did when I was in your situation last year was to be lucky enough to join up with a group of Dutch bikers who sent 12 bikes in one container to Almaty. I entered Mongolia at a land border and did a temporary import.

The lady at Oasis in UB insisted I import my bike into Mongolia so she would get no stress from Customs while it's parked there. I wasted a day of my life at Customs head office near the train station in UB where only due to the superb skill of the Oasis secretary did we manage to pull this import stunt.

The bike is only imported for 1 year. Her wages were 40 $ and I we were able to convince them the the bike was worth only 600$ so I paid 120$ in tax.

I won't bother trying to get this 120 $ back.

My plan is to either ride from Magadan back to UB and and ship the bike back to Europe or ride Mag to Bishkek (but that's a bloody long way) and park it for a year there.

You could freight your bike by truck/ train to Moscow and ride it home from there. Or find someone to ride your bike back all the way. I read somewhere that somebody did a rider~swap in Magadan.
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Old 8 Apr 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimi View Post
kausmong1,

if I import it in Mongolia are you really sure that i need to do the same procedure in Russia?

when I travelled overland, I had my greencard and no country, neither Russia or any of the central asia made problems at the border.

For Mongolia I was explained that this import tax is only paid when the bike comes in a crate, and not through the border.

So I will enter Russia by the road, why would they ask me anything if I don't have any carnet?
Will you REenter with or without your bike???

Because when you reenter with your bike, then you have it on your record again.
When you enter without your bike, then it is in Mongolia, so how will you be able to sell it in Russia?
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  #13  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimi View Post
Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?
What i really dont understand:

You travel from russia to mongolia, then import your bike there, and pay tax for it, ok so far so good.

But then?
Import your bike back to russia?
Why ?
and How?
Its imported to mongolia, so when you want to bring it out of mongolia, what now??

A lot of questions.

And by the way, you do not need a carnet to go to russia and mongolia!!!!
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  #14  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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Chris:
ok I understand now, of course if you paid so less, not even worth trying to get the money back. How difficult is it to estimate the value of the bike so low, do people from the custom in Mongolia know something about bikes?

If you import the bike to Mongolia, it is possible to go to Russia with it then? I don't really see that there is a problem with it, but better know now.

I dont want to put the bike in a train to Moscow, I don't have time for this. And I already rode from Switzerland all the way to Mongolia, it's long and boring, now I want to go diretly to the fun parts!!! ;-)
I will contact Sybille from the Oasis, she might help, you are right.

kalusmong1:

you didn't exactly understand my plan. I am only going to mongolia, because it's the cheapest way to send a bike from europe (germany). The shipping company is quite near from Switzerland.
My plan is to ride in Russia, the western BAM and the Road of Bones.
So yes, I will enter Russia, and go to Magadan. Sell the bike in Russia if I can, or go back to Mongolia to either sell it or ship it back.

I am thinking more and more about not making a ATA carnet, trying to declare a low value for the bike and pay the tax in Mongolia. Then I am cleared to sell it on my way back if I didn't sell it in Russia.

And I understand that if I want to sell it in Russia I have to clear the customs.
I have some russian friends, will try to get some help.
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  #15  
Old 8 Apr 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimi View Post
Chris:
ok I understand now, of course if you paid so less, not even worth trying to get the money back. How difficult is it to estimate the value of the bike so low, do people from the custom in Mongolia know something about bikes?

If you import the bike to Mongolia, it is possible to go to Russia with it then? I don't really see that there is a problem with it, but better know now.

I dont want to put the bike in a train to Moscow, I don't have time for this. And I already rode from Switzerland all the way to Mongolia, it's long and boring, now I want to go diretly to the fun parts!!! ;-)
I will contact Sybille from the Oasis, she might help, you are right.
The bike chassis/engine is on 1988 papers. It also looks very bad cosmetically.

I don't see it's a problem either. The bike is on British papers (and has never been "exported" from Britain) and it was only "imported" to prevent it being "abandoned/sold illegally" in Mongolia without paying Mongolian taxes. I only bothered to "import" the bike to placate Sybille at Oasis.

Mongolian customs are very aware of many people in the past just entering their country and selling/abandoning their vehicle illegally. Also events like the Mongol Rally are of great interest for Mongolia customs. Last summer it took the Mongol Rally competitors at Tashanta/Tsaganuur about 36 hours each to clear customs because of all the paperwork that needed completing.
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