GPS or SatNav
 

Hi all!

We're leaving for a RTW trip 2up in August on Wee Strom. Route:

South america
Central America
North America
New Zealand and Australia
South East Asia
India
Siberia Mongolia and Kazakhstan back to Europe.

Is there any point in getting a sat nav like Garmin or tom tom? Or would it be better to get a GPS and a good paper road map?

I would like to clarify one thing - there is a difference betweend a GPS and SatNav systems. I understand that GPS is based on goegraphical coordinates and doesn't really have a road map attached to it - basically is a fancy compas rather than anything else.

GPS: Garmin eTrex Venture HC Handheld GPS Navigator: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

SatNav: Garmin Zumo 660 Satellite Navigation For Motorbikes: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo
(not that I want to buy these - just to show you what I mean)

SatNav like Garmin etc. provide a navigation facility using GPS capability built into the device.

Do I have to buy maps for the route for the both of them? Is one better than the other or am I just talking about the same thing?

The POI (points of interest) issue: I understand that the files provided in the "sticky" part of the forum provide these points for embassies and campgrounds etc. ?? Can you put them into sat nav and GPS equally?

Lost and confused...

Help!
Andy

I am confused about your distinction between a GPS and a SatNav--as far as I know they are the same thing, in that both receive position data via GPS satellites. The difference is the kind of mapping software which is, and can be, loaded onto the devices.

I have never used any of the handheld GPS devices, but since most of them are small and intended for use for hiking/biking, etc., as far as I know they typically are used for topo maps (trails, etc.). I don't know how big of a topo map they can hold, but presumably people load whatever maps they need for that particular trip. These devices, as I understand it, basically show your current location on the loaded map, your heading, the bearing to your next waypoint, etc.

On the other hand, the vehicle navigations systems such as the Zumo have much bigger screens and more memory and can hold, for instance, detailed routable maps of all of the US or Europe. "Routable" maps are those that tell you how to get from point A to point B via the road network with turn-by-turn directions. These devises can only provide such directions if you have installed the appropriate routable map. If not, you can still enter your destination and you can dead-reckon your way there by following the correct bearing.

Anyway, please clarify if I have misunderstood what you are asking...

GPS; Global Positioning System. This is the US array of satelites that allow tuned in recievers to calculate a position.

Sat Nav; Satelite Navigation. Could describe the above but also the Russian system, European Gallileo version etc, or just about anything short of carrying a theodolite.

What we are talking about is routable maps. These are data sets loaded into the likes of Tom Tom handsets that allow it to take the position calculated, place you on the map and direct you to where you want to be.

IMHO you'll find routable maps limited (lots of motorways, few trails), but highly useful in places which are fully mapped. You will still need a paper map as a back up and for the places where the electronic maps are useless (:offtopic: but would anyone care to guess what "Queens Way" North London should be called? Clue, Garmin call the A-1 "The Great North Road" which means the electronic map was based on something Roman while the lads painting the signs over lane 6 want to be a little briefer and a tad more modern). In the middle of a desert you'd be mad to risk your neck on what a TOM TOM tells you, you'll stick to known trails or at least know a major trail is roughly in one direction. Here a tiny hand held is just as useful, uses less battery, saves weight for water and won't throw wobblies repeating "return to Queens Way then turn left" over and over.

It's what you are used to and what tools suit you. If you can't write a set of paper instructions telling you to turn off the M-1 (sorry, Queens Way) at Junction 3, you'll soon learn regardless of what you take simply because while a Tom Tom will get you through Paris it'll start to struggle and be no better than the small handheld as you move off the detailed routable maps. If you start with the small hand held you'll soon enough find yourself nose on to Buckingham Palace with nothing but a battalion of the Grenadier Guards, a small pack of Corgies and several well enforced laws to stop you following the little arrow on the display to your hotel. Common sense, a feel for roughly the right way and a bit of mental agility are still required, things you get better at as you go. Any GPS device is just a tool to help you but a tool you need to learn to use.

I'd go read the compass thread too. Bottom line here is that if you are heading for places you might die if a walk turns out to be a little longer than expected, you don't want your only means of navigation to be some battery powered farkle, even if it does have a built in MP3 player to record your last will and testament.

Andy

I used all 3 or 4 types of systems to get me lost.

SatNav - I used a TomTom Rider 2, don't buy this, it is not robust enough. Also don't buy the Garmin 660, get the Zumo 550 as it seems to be tougher. This device(whichever you end up with) is only useful for those countries with routable maps, In my case, USA, Canda and Mexico. I did not fork out the extra money for Argentina, and know the Garmin software has routable maps for Peru and other south american countries, not so TT.

GPS - When my TomTm had no maps, I used my Garmin GPS, non routable, with just the basic World Map loaded on it. This at least gave me a general sense of the main roads I needed and as I was staying on the Pan American highway, it was OK.

Maps - I had basic maps of the countries I visited and when both GPS units were a bit confused, or confusing to read, I followed the map and tried to match highway signs, which were not always evident nor correct.

Help - I used this when all the above failed, which it did(not electronically just that they became useless) on may occasions and asked the locals, sometimes this led me to places I would never have seen and did not want to go to, but that is all part of travel :)

In the end, do some more research, read on this and other forums what other people have experienced in real life, and especially from those people who have already been there and done that.

In the end, just go anyway, it will all work out

Cheers
TS

Hello!

I wanted to clarify the difference between the two systems and as you've all said it's the routable maps that make the difference and the two tools work using the same concept overall.

It all boils down to the cost of the tool to me to be honest. I'm not going to fork out 400£ for Zumo 550 - there's no way in hell :) That's too expensive. I still have to buy all the paper maps anyway and that alone will be close to a 100£ anyway so adding the cost of £400 is not an option. If I'd be getting a satnav I would get a simple non-motorcycle dedicated one for 100£.

I'll tell you guys what I'm thinking:

Routable maps only make sense when you're travelling through US and Europe and if that is the main point of interest (it's not for us) I would go for it. For me it's South America, South East Asia, Siberia, Mogolia, India - these are the true highlights for me personally therefore getting a SatNav makes no sense. What I do need is a tool to guide me on where I am when I feel that I lost the way. I'll be mainly using the paper maps anyway and use the GPS just to confirm that I'm roughly in the right place and my heading is right.

Tell me if my way of thinking is wrong please.

Thanks a lot for your input guys!

This isn't the first topic you're helping me out on and I really appreciate it!

Andy

As said above, once you get out of civilisation Garmin's own maps will probably not be very useful any more, nor will they be affordable. But you can get free maps from OSM. They are also not perfect, but they are getting better all the time and if you find roads that are not on the map then please contribute your track logs, because that's how they come to be.

I think what you mean by GPS v. SatNav is this: by your definition a GPS is a box that displays your latitude and longitude, whereas a satnav is a GPS with a map that routes you. These days we call them all GPS. There is no reason any more to not buy a GPS that doesn't display a colour map and does auto-routing and if you want to use free maps then your choice is almost limited to Garmin at this point.

I use a GPSMap 60CSx and I'm reasonably happy with it. I only wish for a bigger screen and a power button that lasts.

If you are interested in the Zumo range there is a dedicated site. If I remember correctly some people there prefer the 660 over the older 550, but go and have a read. It's not cheap.

You still need paper maps for the big picture, but I found that cheap tourist handouts often do the job.

buy one secondhand from someone finishing the America's trip. You might be lucky enough to get one full of interesting POI's.

I too have a 60CSx and think it's great. Besides the GPS lat/long thing, it has an electronic compass and barometric altimeter. A little geeky perhaps, but I for one enjoyed seeing 8600 feet clicking over as I rode in the Atlas.

The other thing it will do is tracklogs. It records everywhere you've been in 3D so you can look back on Google Earth and see your route. (Plus give a pic of your route on Mapsource, show altitude graph, average speed etc - usefull for calculating how far you're likely to go offroad. I was quite alarmed to see we'd average 11mph on a day's off roading.)

It will also follow a tracklog you've programmed into it (using mapsource on a PC) - they call it trackback - and whilst it won't give you "turn left at the roundabout" it will colour the line in to follow. This means that if you're in a city and have plotted your route out it will guide you to the right road. Also means that when out on the trails and faced with three or more all seeming to go in the right general direction, you get a good feel for which one to take as picking the wrong one leads you off the line on screen.

They are expensive, but with battery and bike power available will serve you well in the back of beyond. Even if GPS info is unreliable / unavailable, the compass will still help guide you.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. What I'm aiming for is something that I could use with Google Earth and similar so I can plot the route and stuff. Does it work with the thousands of camping grounds and embassy points provided by Ulrich in the sticky part of the forum?

Andy

I would love to do that so if there is someone outthere trying to sell his please let me know!

Thanks!
Andy

If you can add it to Mapsource, it'll export to the unit yes. With the Olaf maps of Morocco I made a waypoint at every refuel or hotel point shown on the map (they're just graphics on the map, not actual waypoints you can search for or route to.)

Not sure if this is breaking the rules (apologies if it is) but I've got a TT GPS 60 mount on E-bay right now. It will come with a free GPS60CS. The reason the mount is for sale and the GPS unit is free is because my PC broke and I've lost the unlock code. I'm not sure Garmin support this software version anymore but it'll give long and lat and a few other tricks. For anyone who's prepared to deal with Garmin to unlock a four year old device or enter waypoints by hand it could be a bargain.

Andy

I've PMed you about this :) I think Garmin 60CSx is going to be what we're after. Looks easy enough to use and has pretty much everything you might need for overlanding!

Thanks for the info!
Andy

Here's the kind of profile it records:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...GS/Profile.jpg

SatNav is equal to Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS) and is generic term for satellite navigation systems.

GPS is a SatNav-system which uses the US-Satelites (NAVSTAR). There are aslo other Navigation Satellite Systems like the Russian GLONASS and the EU Galileo. As far as I know these systems are not fully functional yet.

So basically GPS is the only SatNav/GNSS you can use today.

The question " GPS or SatNav?" makes as much sense as "eagle or bird?"

Thank you for clarifying this, but as mentioned above we bottomed out what I meant by "GPS or SatNav" - it was the routable maps I was referring to. Basically a handheld GPS like GPSmap CSx60 won't lead you through city centre of LA on a turn-by-turn basis but a Garmin Zumo 550 will.

I think that the lads above understood what I was trying to say and helped me understand what I'm looking for.

Thanks!
Andy

Thanks this seems like a really cool application. Does it "draw" similar profiles for the route?

Sorry, it was just meant to clearify.


As far as I know the Garmin GPSMAP60/CX/CSx supports autorouting but not GPS 60:

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/compare....areProduct=224


[/QUOTE]

I love adversarial discussions of the meanings of specific words. Do they mean what I want them to mean? Who decides? FWIW, you'll be asked constantly, in all sorts of languages, throughout your trip whether you're using a GPS. If you answer "No, I've got SatNav instead," no one's going to get it.

But what I really want to know is why does your website keep saying "four continents" when your maps clearly show five? This sort of discrepancy doesn't lend itself to discussions about the variable meanings of specific words.

Safe journeys!

Mark

(still waiting for a tire, reportedly being delivered any day now by bus, somewhere in Bahia state, Brazil)

Yes I know it does but we're barely gonna touch Europe therefore I only count: 1-South America; 2-North America; 3-Australia; 4-Asia.

Since we're not really visiting Europe but rather trying to get away from it I didn't dare including it in my calculations :) It's just not fair I think :) I've been to one website of some RTW travelers and they had all the continents shown as if they've been there - when I clicked on Africa - they went down to Marocco and back - that doesn't really count does it? It's not like you've been to Africa - you've barely scratched the surface IMO. Same for us and counting Europe in :)

Apart from that how did you like the website overall? Any tips to make it more usable? easier to read? I'll be working on it shortly to make it better!

Cheers,
Andy

Maybe because he skips Africa:
Journey Far Beyond - Round the World on a motorcycle

GPS is for navigators. Be they on land, sea or in the air.
Satnav is GPS that is dummed down by software for the masses so they can find a McD's/tesco's/the way to their mates house while avoiding speed traps etc.

I know someone (car driver), who says it shows him when a sharp bend is coming up FFS!:thumbdown:

They all use the same data, but can display in differing coordinate formats.

Find yourself a nice cheap Garmin 276c in good condition and some extra memory cards and load it with SmellyBikers Wonderlust maps.
They are enough and you never know, you may be able to contribute back the Wonderlust DB.:mchappy:

John

You say potato, but I say potahto. I count five, but you count four. And there was something about SatNav as well.....

I liked the look of the site--very classy, very smooth. I didn't really try to check into it, since this morning I was planning to have a tire delivered and installed and be out of here....but now it looks like I'm stuck waiting for at least another day. Sigh. I'll have a more thorough look later on.

What I'll say from the start is that I'm always trying to check up on websites while I'm on the road, and the ones which take a long time to load I stop bothering with. Same with threads on forums like the HUBB which include endless photos; I can never wait around long enough for the page to finish loading, so I've learned who to avoid completely. It's different if I'm home with reliable, fast connections.

Don't know if that applies to your site, or if it's of interest.

enjoy,

Mark

http://www.seachest.co.uk/acatalog/s...davis_mk15.jpg

This is what you need ! I'm putting one on my DRZ.. I wonder if touratech make a bracket ! ??

Could you tell me how this one compares with the Garmin GPSmap 60CSx ? Is it pretty much the same capabilities? I see that the screen is definitely bigger on 276c.

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely check this one out.

Andy

It definitely applies. I've downsized the photographs trying to avoid loosing the quality but the entire site - all photos and galleries including backgrounds etc. is about 50MB in size so hopefully you shouldn't have too much problem viewing it. It's definitely very important IMO. The photos need to open rapidly and hasslefree or nobody will waste time to wait for their download.

Let us know how you get on I'd be definitely very interested in hearing your thoughts. Same goes for all you other geezers outthere! :) Let us know what you think about the website! :)

Cheers,
Andy

You kill me! I hope you'll make it to the Mini HU Meeting in Inverness at the end of May :)

Cheers,
Andy

No No No No, what you need is one of these https://sites.google.com/site/threew...he-sun-compass

None of this daft riding in the dark so you can have a quick look up Orions Belt at Uranus business. :thumbup1: :rofl:

Andy

Hehehe!

Back to the topic :)

I've looked at 276C in comparison with the 60CSx ?

The 276 looks like a full blown navigator's tool and is really expensive when compared to 60CSx and to be honest hard to get as there's a newer 278 on the market now. The 60CSx sounds really good and is I guess reasonably priced at 203 quid on ebay.

I think we'll go with the 60 series.

I'll try... Depends if the sky is clear so I can fix a bearing ! Otherwise, No !! :rofl:

I don't know who Orion is, but I'm sure he won't be too happy with you looking at his anus.. :smartass:

See if you can find something like Atomic Web Page Size Calculator - Web page size and download speed calculator. to check how fast your site loads to others on the net.

Think about using a javascript plugin like "Lightbox" so you only load a thumbnail... those interested can click to enlarge
Example: BikerBytes: Alternators and Things

John

I would absolutely stay away from any site that did that. The site has to be seen the way it is, no clicking this to look at a photo, if it is not there, it I won't go looking for it. Just my personal opinion of course :)

Back to the subject - If you want a routable GPS, make sure you can read the screen from where it sits on the dash, handlebar or whatever to where you are sitting in a normal riding position. The last thing you need or want to do is to stop and read it, it has to be useful on the move when riding through traffic, if that is what you are using it for. If it is just to record the days tracks, then put it in the tank bag out of sight and it will still work.

Thanks for these links! I'll check these out! As far as the images on the web are concerned I'm using Lightbox but the images you see as thumbnails on our website are actually the images you're seeing in lightbox although just shown as smaller (they're not resized or resampled in anyway). This way as TS mentioned what you see is what you get. Each image is about 100-200 Kb so it shouldn't be too much of a problem to view it.

The first continent ahead of us is SA. To buy routable maps to cover SA might be quite a lot of money I think. I'm thinking about the GPS more for figuring out where I am and if my heading is roughly right to get me where I want to be rather than travelling through City Centre on a turn by turn basis.

What I need the GPS to do is to show me a map of where I am, give me my coordinates, have a compas and a capability to use routable maps if I need it to. Does GPSmap 60CSx do that? I know it says it does that on their website but is that actually the case?

Andy

I doubt very much if Garmin could get away with claiming something that their units cant do and why would they. Every one that post on the 60csx all seem to think they are a top bit of kit. When my 276c dies, that type of unit will be on my list, but a unit with a bigger screen will probably tempt me:thumbup1:

Just a question... why show your location in the degrees/mins/seconds format rather than the the more common decimal degrees?

Regarding a mount for your chosen unit GPS unit, explore all the RAM mount options before you stump up for the overpriced TouraTech unit. After crashing on the KKH my mount was as much use cheese and ended up securing it with a couple of rubber bands cut from and old innertube.
I now use a ball that is U clamped to the bars and a stubby RAM joint attached to the plastic cradle with another ball on it. I think it will be more "flexible" when you drop the bike.

John

The degrees/mins/seconds format probably shows that I haven't used a lot of GPS in my time - and I would say it is true. As you can see the website is stylized for old times (with some success I guess - I wanted a little more design but we had no time or tools to do that - we'll get there as I'm reviewing the website design as we speak) so we wanted to give the coorodinates the only way we know them from our sailing days on tallships which always was degrees/min/seconds. :)

I will definitely explore the mount idea for the unit. For me going to Touratech is always the last resort :)

Thanks for the advice!

Yes - providing the maps you install on it are routable.

Just one note (if you didn't already know) the 60CSx does NOT have a voice function - it will not speak to tell you where to turn, just indicate on screen.

That's absolutely fine. To be honest using the GPS systems that talk to you I found that they're speaking either too late or too early :)

All I need is to know roughly in which direction I'm going and let the GPS guide me for the last mile or two really just to get to the right street I guess.

Since the 60CSx does that I'm quite confident it's the best gear for overlanding when it comes to the abilities and price.

Will it work with Ulrichs POIs?
 

Hi again all!

Just wanted to ask one question. You all know the points provided by Ulrich - campgrounds and embassys etc. Is it possible to transfer these onto the GPSmap 60CSx? I know somebody said if you get MApSource software to do it it will work...Is there a specific file extension that can be used with these? Or any will do? Also some of them come with Europeas Base Map. Should I get a World Base Map?

If you can get them in .gdb format, thats for Garmin.
You can get a copy of POIConverter for anything you get in TT or other formats.

Go for the world basemap... at least any POI's will show where they are on the outline.

You will get a copy of MapSource when you buy your unit.
You may also get a copy of Garmins Trip & Waypoint Manager with it. If not, it costs about £20 or check fleabay. I got a copy with the 276c.

John

Thanks a lot!

I think I got everything I need to make the decision :)

Thanks a lot for all your advice guys!

Andy