KLE 500 Dyno-tuning/carb settings info needed.
 

Hi there.

I have just installed a DNA filter and changed the exhaust. The bike revs much more freely, but still lacks just that little extra midrange grunt. I suspect it is running a little lean now.

I was wondering if a going a little larger on the main jet will improve it a bit. Dynojet do a jet kit, but it's a Stage #3. I am more inclined to go for Stage #1 type settings. The needle cannot be adjusted as it is fixed type (no circlip). If anyone has done this before I would appreciate a few pointers. (Jet sizes to start with etc.)

Another thing I found strange on my '07 KLE 500 is that left and right main jets are different sizes, #95 and #92 respectively. Can someone explain why this is?

I would appreciate any info regards the above.
Cheers
SPYE :confused1:

Hi
I'm running stage 3 K&Ns and full arrow system i also have a dynojet kit (stage 3)
The kit comes with:
126, 130, 134 main jets
Adjustable needle jets
softer springs and a drill bit to drill the slide (quicker throtlle opening) but i didn't bother with this

as for setting i use a 130 main jet and needle jets 1 higher than base setting 4th from top i think. i have a 33hp restrictor so can't tell how much better it is over std unrestricted but it pulls all the way upto 8000 before the restrictor kills it

as for the different std jets i think it may be to smooth out power delivery so the cylinders generate peak power at different engine speeds or its to do with the odd length exhausts?

I have a few questions if you dont mind.

1) What model KLE do you have? Is it the 2005 model that came out with the cat. exhaust.

2) Are you still using your stock airbox with a aftermarket (DNA or K&N) air filter?

3) How has the power improved? and has the fuel consumption increased quite a bit.

Can I use the Dynojet Stage 3 kit on my '07 KLE, using stock airbox with DNA filter and a semi-free flow pipe (end can only) and the stock headers? The Dynojet site says it is for models '91 -'98. (DJK 2149)

Thanx
SPYE

1) Its an 07

2) stage 3 K&Ns are 2 cone filters fitted straight onto the carbs with no airbox

3) Can't give exact figures but it definately makes a difference to the power
low-mid range there is a big improvement as for the topend it revs round to 10k freely but the restrictor kills it off so i can't tell how much power has been gained
As for fuel consumption it depends how much u thrash it with std set up i would get about 140 miles (54mpg) before reserve now i get about 120-130 (49mpg). Yesterday i raised the gearing from 17/44 to 17/42 this helps alot with fuel economy (50mpg riding spirited so could easily get 54+mpg riding normally)

The kit says it can be used with stock filters and exhaust upto stage 3 filters and freeflow exhaust so you should be fine as for the 91-98 models emissions laws changed so the later models couldn't legally use them

Thanx for the info. I must try and find a Dynojet distributor here in South Africa.

I am not inclined to go for the two separate cone filters. I want to keep the strandard air box with the DNA filter. As you said, you dont think it would be a problem keeping it like that.

Cheers
SPYE

From packaging:
For mildly tuned machines using the stock air-box, with stock or K&N filter. may also be used with a good aftermarket exhaust system.

so there shouldn't be a problem

I had a Dyno run done on the bike. The one is when the bike stock standard and the other is after the mod. with the new zorst and DNA filter installed.

Notice that after the mod. the power gain is not impressive. The torque curve is also all over the place.
Judging from the graph and comparing does someone think that the bike will need a bit of jetting to increase the power and give it a bit more low/mid range grunt.

Any advice will be helpful.
Thanx. :confused1:

The dyno place should have been able to give you an air/fuel ratio graph to show how off the jetting is.

The average air/fuel ratio is approx 15:1 (someone correct if wrong) this will give a good balance of power and economy by increaseing the amount of air available to the engine your fuel ratio could be (for ease of numbers) 30:1 so to get back to the 'optimal' mix the jetting needs to be richer in this example twice as much fuel is required.

An example of how badly lean running can hurt performance is when my mate removed a bung from the airbox on his tiger 900 to increase air flow with the bung removed i could easily out accelerate him at nearly any speed with the bung back in place and optimal mix restored his tiger out accelerates me at any speed and leaves me for dust past 60mph

So a re-jet would definately smooth out the curve and unleash its full potential

Hope this helps

surprised no one else has posted on this thread

The bike shops co2 sensors or something like that was not working at the time. Its a pity because it would be interesting to see. I will have to get the jetting done, but its very expensive over here in South Africa. A complete rip-off if you ask me.

Thanx for the info.

The jet kit cost me £82 which is quite a bit when you consider what you are actually getting.
A cheaper option maybe to get the dyno place to re-drill your jets and adjust the needles with small washers

Carb
 

Hi! If you have changed the exhaust and air filter, you will more or less have to rejet your carb. I did a minor change which included a 5mm hole in the airbox to "improve" the airflow (I know one small hole wont do much of a change, but I wanted to do this upgrade slowly, and do test runs to see what effect the small "mods" would have), but that was enough to actually feel that something wasn't right (didn't give "instant" response to full throttle, and could not feel any gain in HP). I can't tell you how you should rejet your bike, but I would start by increasing the main jets by one size at a time(if the headers are having the same length, you could probably have 2 main jets with the same size), and see if that makes any difference (might have to do some minor adjustments to the jet needles and the pilor screw). The best thing would ofcourse include leaving the jetting to the people at the dyno where they can actually measure the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio). :thumbup1:



EDIT: I forgot to add that I have a new KLE with the small jets as stock ('99, so too old for the catalytic converters, but that's not relevant (92 and 95 main jets, instead of having two 112 main jets, as the older ones)). Small washers to adjust the needle might be needed too, but I would however start with the main jets and work my way from there

EDIT*2: The mods I've done to my bike is changing the exhaust, though I did the cheap way and bought an used ER-5 exhaust (~80 dollars), as they have same header length, but just doing that made the bike going lean (no other modifications added), so I installed two 95 main jets, but that were not good enough, so I went with two 100 main jets and that worked like a charm (did need to add a small hole to the airbox, as it went a little bit too rich (but not by much)). Later, I decided to get myself a DNA filter, and it felt like it barely gained anything, so I ended up with getting two 110 main jets (could not get 105), and shimmed the needles with a small washer on each needle, and added an other hole to balance it (5mm each hole). I can't tell for sure if the bike now could be a little rich, but I'll take a look at my spark plugs later to see, but I can tell you one thing - it did help a lot with the performance (no dyno, though the change were noticable (and by much, I would say)). I took a small look on the spark plugs on normal riding (never did any "real" checks, which includes doing WOT on a straight road and check the main jet from there, which I probably should have done), and think that they looked good (but that doesn't tell much about the main jet, but I do not feel any hesitation nor stumbling on full throttle, so I hope it should be fine)

I can not guarantee that my settings are correct, but as I do not feel any kind of hesitation, and the spark plugs did look fine, according to me (if, by anything, could be a little bit too rich, but I'll take a look later with some extra miles on it and decide from there)

Thanx for the info. I've been doing a little research on the older model KLE carb and cam/timing specs. It seems like the cam and ignition timing is the same as the new KLE. They dont have the "Kawasaki Clean Air System" on the older models. So I will probably remove it and blank it off on the tappet cover like the older model. Don't see the point of this gimmick, only extra maintenance (reed petals, vaccuum switch etc...). As far as the carbs are concerned, the only difference I can see is the main jet (112), jet needle (N96J) and perhaps the vacuum spring stiffness.

I am sure if you restore the carb to these settings you will just about be there. PS The headers on the old bike are the same as the new one. Not sure why the compression on the old bike is more.

I am looking for the Kawasaki Part numbers the old carb parts. I only have the new parts manual for the 06 ~ 07 model.

Ahh, think I will do just that; get two new needles with the markings N96J, which should probably be fine, and could get two 112 main jets, though i doubt that will do much difference from the 110s I am using now (as I am quite sure the older KLEs are rich on the top). By getting the needles and open up the airbox to something similar as the older KLEs (well, the snorkel on the older ones are bigger, but I have to take it into consideration as the DNA filter means that I can not have an opening as big as the older one). With those settings, one shouldn't have to worry about the jetting balance, as it most likely should be good :cool4:

I would like to do the same on my bikes carbs. Do you have the Kawasaki part numbers for the 112 jets and N96J needles? I can't seem to find them anywhere. My local dealer works in Part Numbers only. Dont forget to check the vacuum slide springs as they might be a different stifness to the newer one.

I have a genuine parts manual if you are interested. It covers 06 ~ 07 KLE 500. Can email it. Quite handy.

Forgot to mention that I placed two 3mm spacer washers under each needle. It definately made a differance. There's a bit more torque, but the fuel economy has gone down a bit. (Jets still standard 95;92.)

OK, I found the part number for the 112 main jet, and it is 92063-1117 , but it seems more or less impossible to find any part number for the N96J needle - really impossible. I found the info about the main jet at Kawasaki's spare part page, but searching for N96J doesn't give any results back :thumbdown:

(Couldn't even find KLE 500 as an available model, so I had to look for other models with 112 main jet, so I went for EN-500, which should work fine)

The following URL gives all spare parts for 500cc bikes from kawasaki, and as you can see, KLE 500 does NOT exist :(
https://www.kawasakiepc.com/SystemSe...SearchBy=Model

Update: The part number for the N96J jet needle is 16009-1657 :clap:

Update2: It seems like the older KLEs are using the same vacuum spring as the newer one, as you can see from these two sources
KLE -92 : kawasaki carburetor parts partsmanual fiche 1992 a2 kle500 (this page can also be used to look for carburator parts on the older KLEs)
KLE -00 (as in 2000) kawasaki carburetor parts partsmanual fiche 2000 a10 kle500

I hope this is what you (including me, as this have been of great interest to me as well) have been looking for :cool4:


Extra note: b.t.w. 2x3mm washers on each needle? If I am not incorrect, that should make a huge difference, and I mean huge (as in going really rich); sure you do not mean 2x0.3mm? If you really used 2x3mm washers, did you not feel any kind of stumbling? How much did it affect your milage? I only used 1 single 0.5mm washer on each needle, and think it improved the performance (ofcourse, in the middle range) noticably, but not sure if it's enough

Hi there.

When I mean 3mm washers it is the hole that is 3mm diameter for the needle to fit through. The actual washer is less than 1mm thickness.

Let me know how your performance is with the 112 main jets and N96J needles.

Thanx.

Hi!
Just going to inform you; going to order the jet needles tommorrow; just sent them a mail, asking if they could order them, which they could, so if everything should work as "planned", I will probably get the needles quite soon
(Not that cheap, around 21$ each needle, but think it can be worth it, knowing that the "balance" should be OK between the jet needle and the main jet, and I'll go with the 110 main jet which is allready "installed" in the carbs, as the difference between 110 and 112 could not have such a great effect)

:cool4:

Hi again.

I bought two #112 main jets and installed them today. Standard N60D needles with one spacer washer and DNA filter installed. I tested the bike and it pulls nicely up to about 3/4 throttle. From 3/4 to full throttle it splutters and does not pull. Cant seem to understand the problem? I promply returned the original jets.

I was thinking of going the milder route and keeping the N60D needles. Perhaps going up to #100 on the left and #98 on the right. Did your bike pull a lot better with the two #100 jets? What model is yours again. Mine is a '07.

Any thoughts on that?

Jetting
 

Hi. I am driving a -99, but if your machine doesn't go well from 3/4 to full throttle, it is an indication that the main jet is too rich; have you modified the airbox? The snorkel on the newer KLEs (including mine) are too small to work well with the bigger jets, so if you are going to use them; you will need "more air" to compensate for the bigger main jets (but that will also affect the air/fuel ratio everywhere else, which could mean that it could go lean in normal riding (which is usually affected by the needles)). Getting this dialed in correctly can be hard, since there are many factors that can effect this (which is why I will just get two similar needles from the older kle (N96J), as that will probably make the "balance" well too.

Edit: The change from 92, 95 too 100, 100 did actually make a difference, but going from 100, 100 to 110, 110 did have a really nice effect on the performance. B.T.W. do you have two identical needles (N60D) or two different needles (N96L and N60D)?

Edit2: An extra tip: if you want to get things dialed in correctly with your current needles and the 112 main jets, it could require some time, because even if you get the machine to run well at full throttle, the transition between the needle and the jet could still not be well. If you are lucky, shimming could fix this, but the length of the needle is not the only factor that comes into play when getting the needles to work well. There are more things, like taper and the diameter of the needle; will they be correct when you are using 112 main jets with N60D needles shimmed? Who knows, you could get it all correct. Here's a page that will explain a lot on how carbs are working, if you are interested (unless you have allready read this and/or have knowledge about this allready :cool4:): Dan's Motorcycle Carburator theory and Tuning

Edit 2
 

Hi there.

Yes, both carbs have the N60D needles. The N96L needles are not a option on the parts fiche. On the parts fiche for the 06~07 model they list a few jet size options. Apart from snorkel on the older KLE airbox I think that the physical size/volume might be different. Can that affect things? The older model airbox has different part no's, so perhaps it is mached to the 112 sized jets. The only other option is to use the 112 jets with the N96J needles as you mentioned the profile of those needles are different to the N60D and thus mached to the 112 jets.

I have ordered the N96J needles and the larger airbox snorkel from my local Kawasaki dealer, but it is 4-6 weeks ex Japan. Can you beleive it! Thanks for the info, its greatly appreciated as although I have a mechanical/electrical background I am learning as I am going on.

Before I forget. On the parts fish for the 1995 model there are five different vacuum valves (slide and diaframe). On the 99 model there are three. On the 07 model there are two, one is a 27kw version. How do you know if you have the right one for your new jet/needle set-up (112 & N96J) and what do the differerent ones mean? :confused1:

Hi!
First, the airbox should be similar; from what I can see, they have the same part number, the only difference is the snorkel (Actually, there is a 1992 airbox in my 1999 KLE, and I compared them both when I had them, and I could not see any noticable difference (The older airbox is from my older KLE, though do not own it anymore)). To compensate for the smaller snorkel, I drilled two 8mm (I wrote 5mm before, but I remember that it were 8mm) holes, which made the machine run fine, but perhaps a third hole could be needed; when you get the part, can you measure it with the old snorkel? Could be interested too see how they differ in area.

About the different slides; I'm sorry, but I did not even know about that! I actually don't think you will have any problems installing the 112 main jets and N96J needles with the new snorkel anyway, but these are just speculations.

UPDATE: I drove for 2 hours today, and actually did a lot of testing to see the response with my current setup, and I think I am going to stay with the original needles (shimmed), as I can not feel any kind of hesitation nor struggling; it's running like a champ! The spark plugs more or less have the same "colour" on the base ring (no sign of it running lean).

There's one thing I think is strange, that there is no way to tell the measurements on the needle from their codes. I mean, if you check FCR 32-33, the first digit shows the taper, the 2:nd and 3:rd gives you the length of the needle, and the last digit gives you the diameter, but you can not measure the needles in our KLEs the same way. I've spend countless of hours to see if there is an other way to read the needles, but when I found a chart of different needles, I could not spot any pattern, as a *64* needle could be larger than a *84* needle (and sometimes smaller :confused1:), and same went with the diameter and taper. I am actually going to take the needles out soon and measure them too see the difference between them. If you could measure the N96J needles when you get them (the length and the diameter is enough), I would be greatfull! :thumbup1:

(I'm sorry about the whole "change of heart", when it came to the needles from my part, but I somehow feel that shimming the original needles should work (40+ dollar is a bit too much I think for something that could not be necessary, when I think my machine is running super!))

Edit: 4 - 6 weeks?! Ouch, that's a long time to wait! I hope everything will work fine when you get the parts, though! :cool4:

//Mollrik

Hi again!

OK, so I have changed my mind. I have ordered the needles and the 112 main jets today, since I felt a small stumbling going WOT > 120km/h, and really can't bother myself with shimming, as it could fix the problem, maybe not.
I want to ride the KLE, not fix it all the time to get it run perfect with the current setup, and as I described before, the two needles I have now are different, so I decided it would be easier just to get the "correct" parts :cool4:

Hopefully, everything will go fine with the new needles (will take around 4 days to get the parts)

Hi.

Perhaps you should also change the airbox snorkel to the larger one and put the original air filter back. Then you know everything is stock and take it from there.

This was posted on advrider if anyones intrested in a pic of the different snorkels
Quite surprising the difference in size
http://winweb373.sr23.firestorm.ch/t...ltertuning.pdf

Hi

It just shows how the newer model KLE 500's are restricted.

OK, now I have installed the new jet needles (N96J). I have to tell you, that there's a big difference between the N96J needles and the N96L and N60D. The N96J needles length is similar to the others, but it's a lot thinner (there's a noticable difference). OK, everything installed, I decided to take it for a test run. I drove up to the closest highway, but still, it were stumbling, so I were thinking to myself how this could happen. Anyway, I decided to let it breath more, so I added 2 more holes (still using the small snorkel), and damn! A huge difference! It's going way past the speed limit (around 175km/h where I tried it, (perhaps I could got a bit more of it, but doublty), which should be good?) and now it runs like a champ! :)

Hi there.

I am glad you finaly got your bike sorted out. :thumbup1: I am still waiting for my N96J needles and larger snorkel.

Are you using your DNA air filter and have you shimmed the newly installed N96J needles? What grade of fuel are you using over there? I am using 95 unleaded here in South Africa. It will be interesting to put the bike on the dyno and see the power/torque improvement.

BTW. Can you check your fuel economy as I was wondering how this new set-up will affect fuel consumption.

What is your air-screw setting? How many turns out?

I was still wondering what the different vacuum valve (diaphram) options are for? You will see them on the parts fiche eg. 1995 model. If anyone can shed some light it would be helpful.

Hi! Yes, I am using the DNA filter, but the small snorkel, so I am compensating it with holes in the airbox. I know I could have gotten the other/bigger snorkel, but I didn't (which could have been better, but oh well). No, I have not shimmed the needles, and I really don't think it's necessary (will probably go rich then, as the N96J needles should work fine with the 112 main jets, and it will affect the fuel economy, and could also lower the HP) Just to clarify; the N96J needles are a lot thinner than the older ones, so there's no doubt that it's going richer in that particular circuit right now :)

Edit: Sorry, missed your part about the fuel. I am running unleaded 95 fuel up here in Sweden :)


Edit2: Ahh, yes, I'll check the fuel consumption as soon as I'll fill her up again :)


Edit3: OK, I really have to slow down. My current fuel mixture screws(air screws are for 2 strokes, just wanted to point that out :P) are 2 3/4 turns out with stock pilot jet (the Ninja/GPZ/EX 500 normally has 2½ turns out with the same pilot. I tried lowering it with a "quarter" before, but as it were running worse, I tried 3 turns out, but that was too much, so I therefor stick with 2 3/4 turns :) ) I can't answer your questions about the diaphrams though, sorry :(

Thanx.

Interesting about the air screw setting. On the '07 KLE 500 the spec is 1 3/4 ~
2 1/4 turns out. Do you know what the exact air screw setting spec is on the full power KLE 500 model? The one with the #112 main jets and N96J needles ('95 model). I am sure the GPZ/Ninja/EX 500 jetting/needle set-up will be slightly different to the old full power KLE 500 and thus the air screw setting maybe a bit different. Could be wrong. This is the only thing I am not quite sure about.

Hi.
Not sure about the amount of turns for the full power KLE 500, but if I am correct; I read somewhere that they should be around 1 3/4 turns, but no guarantee though.
Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but if the info will ever be needed; here's the carb specs for the GPZ 500...

Pilot screw (turns out) : 2 +- 1/4 (FG, AR), 1 3/4+ 1/4 (ST), 1 1/2 +- 1/4 (though the last setting for US is on the lean side (hanging around on a GPZ 500 forum too))

float height : 17 +- 2mm (same for the full power KLE 500*)
Main jet : #130 (#112 for the full power KLE)
Main air jet: #100 (same for the KLE 500*)
Needle jet: 16017-1208 OR 16017-1059 (US) (can't find anything for the KLE here)
Jet needle: N36N (N96J for the full power KLE)
Pilot jet (slow jet): #35 (Same for the full power KLE 500*)
Starter jet: #50 (#52 for the full power KLE 500*)
Throttle valve angel: 11 degrees (same for the full power KLE 500*)

* the newer ones (KLE 500) also have these settings

I though that this info could be interesting for comparison if someone want to go even further with their carb settings.

note: the jet needle have no function whatsoever in the pilot circuit (except for the transition). When there's no throttle in "play", the butterfly valve (think that's the name for it) is closed, therefor, only the pilot circuit is "active".

Hi

I managed to find a Service Manual for a 1991 ~ KLE 500. It is in German and I cannot understand a word of it. The only thing I managed to figure out is that the air screw setting spec says 1 1/2 turns out.

If you can understand German I can email the manual to you.

Hey!

I have a german manual as well, but same goes for me - didn't get much out of it!

Used it to look at the carb settings, but couldn't find anything (perhaps mine's different from yours?)!

If you can find out more about the carb settings (from the manual (sizes e.t.c.)), I would like to have it! :)

Hey again! :)

OK, thought that I should make an input about the new needles, as I've tested those now for around 200km (and still doesn't have to switch to reserve, even with some "aggressive" testing involved). The N96J needles are A LOT richer, and by that I mean a lot. If you remember; i had 2x8mm holes drilled on the back side of the airbox, and it went fine in that particular circuit with the "lean" needles. Now, with the newer ones, I added 2 more holes, but that was not enough, as it was still going rich, so I added 2 more holes, and now things are starting to become better.

No stumbling whatsoever, accelerates fine now, and there's enough power to actually make the KLE more fun to drive (is there such thing as "enough" power? :P).

I'm quite positive that I have reached the 50hp (if not a little extra due to the exhaust and DNA filter, if so, +1 or so).

PS: I'll give you more updates when I've gathered more information about the fuel consumption!

/Mollrik

Hi

Sounds good.

Your KLE 500 ('99 model) lists the compression as 10.8:1 and mine ('07 model) lists it as 9.8:1. I was wondering what effect this will have on my slightly lower compression bike when I change the jets/needles like yours.

Any thoughts?

Hey!

First of all, I thought that I had 9.8:1 compression too, but seems like I was wrong (did some browsing around aswell, and 10.8:1 seems about right!). I doubt that you will encounter any problems, even with the lower compression.

/Mollrik

Hi

I have just installed the #112 jets, N96J needles and larger snorkel. I have put back the original air filter as I wanted to keep everything within the original spec.

I took the bike for a short spin around the block and there definately is a great inprovement in the performance. It pulls stronger and revs quicker. It probably is not so fuel/air starved anymore. I set the air screw at 1 3/4 turns out. The spec says 1 1/2. The N96J needles are a lot thinner.

I will take the bike on a longer run this Sunday and see how it goes. From what I have felt on the bike so far this easy mod is highly reccomended if you have a newer "greener" KLE 500 and want to squeeze out a few extra ponies without too much fiddling and fuss. I am a bit two minded about re-installing the DNA air filter as I am not sure how this affect the air/fuel ratio's and the performance. I gave the bike a good caning (WOT) and there was not any stumbling or hesitation.

To sum up the parts to change are as follows: (Kawasaki OEM part no's)

14073-1481 Duct, Intake (larger air box air intake snorkel)
16009-1657 Needle-Jet N96J
92063-1117 Jet, Main #112 (main jet)

I will report back on my Sunday ride. :mchappy:

Forgot to mention. I got the main jets from another dealer. The main jet is not a genuine Kawasaki part. It is inscripted " 112 Factory K " I was wondering if the size shown on this jet (#112) is the same size as the genuine 112 jet. It physically looks exactly the same exept for the inscription. Any thoughts?

Hey!

Nice to hear the good news :D

My main jets are not genuine either, and they are working just fine!

I doubt that there should be any problems with your jets :thumbup1:

Give me more updated after your long trip, as I am interested to hear your results; my KLE runs great with the new carb parts too, but, I do not have the big snorkel (running with DNA air filter AND er-5 exhaust)

edit: I actually do no think the DNA increases the "air flow" that much more. Of course, it's better than stock, but do not think by much, so I don't think you will encounter any problems. If any, I think your KLE is running rich now, as they older ones are famous on that part (have several sources that can point that out, if you are not too sure about that), so I think installing the DNA will actually be a good thing!

edit2: If you are wondering why I am using the ER-5 exhaust, see this link, and the images below, as it describes the tuning process of KLE, but it doesn't include the jet sizes :( Tuning 500 KLE (not even the original german texts includes it, as I've read that one through (translated, ofcourse))

Here are some dyno graphs for the KLE 500

Original (48 hp):

http://www.dernacken.de/Leistung-Serie.gif
(original site: KLE-Tuning2)

Modified airbox/filter (54 hp)

http://www.dernacken.de/Leistung-KN-Intake-Kit.gif
(original site: KLE-Tuning3)

Modified airbox/filter + yoshimura exhaust (the point is the equal headers) (58 hp)
http://www.dernacken.de/Leistung-Yoshimura-komplett.gif

(original site: KLE-Tuning3)

And, here's the bonus! KLE 500 with GPZ 500 camshafts (with all the modifications listed above; I will not use those camshafts, of course, as they lower the low and mid range hp, and too much hazzle, I think. It says 65 hp on the translated page, but I think 63 is more correctly)!

http://www.dernacken.de/Leistung-GPZ-Nocke.gif

(original site: KLE-Tuning4)








/Mollrik

Hi

Wow! Thats some serious gain in HP. As you said its a bit pointless installing GPZ 500 cams because it takes away the low/mid range on the KLE and that is where you need it on the bike. I wonder if those Dyno Graphs are showing power at the wheel or if it a optimized crank figure. If it is at the wheel, then its a serious improvement. I will re-install my DNA filter after my long ride and see how it goes.

If you check your spark plugs some time, then let me know how they are burning. (pics):thumbup1:

Hey!

I can more or less guarantee that those are crank horsepower, not back wheel horse power. Why? Well, the GPZ 500 makes around 50 hp stock, and 52 hp with the famous "FoG airbox mod". Getting more than 52 hp at the wheel will drastically lower the engine life. The GPZ 500 has 60hp at the crank, and around 62-63 with the FoG mod, so it's most likely at the crank!

edit: even if the graphs above lists the crank horse power; just modifying the airbox and change exhaust is well than enough (58 hp if done "right", but that's probably not the case for us with the 112 main jets, as we will probably need bigger ones and modify the airbox even further, but I think what I have now is enough :) ). The big bonus with the ER-5 exhaust is - less vibrations AND I'm positive it have gained some horsepower in the higher RPMs :). About the spark plugs; I'll probably take some pics later on, as the last time I checked (4 holes, 6 now, and still a bit too rich :P); It were running rich!


/Mollrik

Hi

I went for my Sunday ride and I must say I was quite impressed. The power gain is very noticable. It pulls a lot stronger and harder. I took the revs to about 9000 and there was no hesitation, flat spots or stumbling at all. It is running perfectly :clap:

Ok, so the KLE is not a superbike but this small mod for is definately worth while as it makes the bike more fun to ride. Bigger grin factor. I am sure you can do more if you want to get carried away, but I pesonally think that this is enough. If you realy want loads more power then I think its best to get a bigger bike.

I am going to try it out with the DNA filter sometime this week. It should be a little more responsive. I need to clean the DNA filter before I install it as it is a bit dirty after a weekend of gravel road touring recently. Apparently you need to get a DNA universal cleaning kit.
I will also be keeping an eye on the fuel economy. I am sure it will be around the same as the previous set-up. :D

Forgot to mention: I did a high speed run on the highway on Sunday. It was a long flat straight run with no wind and I could only get 165 km/h (WOT) and not a km more. It stops dead at 165. The bike gets to top-speed very quickly, pulls great, but the top end was less than I expected. I wonder if the DNA filter will sort it out?

Any thoughts?

Hey!

Nice to hear that everything went fine!

I am thinking about getting the larger snorkel myself tomorrow, and duct tape the holes, as I should probably get the correct amount of air that way, instead of speculating around as I am doing right now with holes (I still have the feeling that my machine is running rich).

If I'll get the larger snorkel, using the DNA air filter, and the ER-5 exhaust, I might actually get one size larger main jet too (115, main jets are darn cheap (2$ a piece) anyway, so feels stupid to be greedy about them (and the snorkel is not that expensive, either)), as the ER-5 exhaust is "flowing" more, and the DNA filter itself also helps. :thumbup1:

What are your opinions about this?

/Mollrik

Hi

Yep, I think it is worth a try. :thumbup1:

As you say the old spec KLE's ran a little on the rich side so I guess a liitle more air/flow will not hurt.

BTW, Do you have the ER-5 headers as well. If so how does the ER-5 header pipe fit under the KLE sump plate. (pics) I still have the original headers with a custom made slip-on tail piece. Will send a pic later.

I have also decided to remove the "clean air system". The vaccuum switch, pipes etc. The early model KLE's did not have this. I have ordered the OEM blanking plates and gaskets. I dont see the point of this gimmick as it seems like extra maintenance.

How do you think this will affect anything (performance etc.)? Any thoughts?

Hey!

OK, I have bought the 115 main jets today, but of course, the snorkel have to be ordered from Kawasaki, so I'll get it in 1-2 weeks!

That darn snorkel costs around 20$ (actually, I more or less were expecting something similar), but now I'll get it!

I'll give you more details when I'll get the snorkel!



Ohh, about the ER-5 exhaust. I removed the sump plate (if you mean that metal "plate", under the exhaust) for it to fit, but other than that, it worked fine! (had to make a custom "exhaust holder", but it fits well onto the cylinders, so you just need something to hold it there!).

I'll take a picture of the headers later (today or tomorrow), but for the record, they are equal length, but I understand that a picture might still be of interest!

To tell you the truth, not sure what this "clean air system" is, so if you could shed a light to this, I would be thankful :)

/Mollrik

Hi

Apparently the "clean air system" takes air from the air from the air box and injects it into the two exhaust ports. Someone can correct me on this.

Hey!

OK, here are the images, though the quality is not that great (specially the second image, but I think you can see what it should be), as they are taken by a crappy mobile phone, but I think these will do!
(perhaps I should have changed "light mode" on the camera, but nevermind, here they are :P)

edit: I also found this picture of the ER-5 exhaust, so I thought that I could include it here as well!
http://i30.twenga.com/3/tp/09/80/125...67970980vb.png
source: http://i30.twenga.com/3/tp/09/80/125...67970980vb.png

Hi

I notice the main jet options on the old carb set-up (N96J needle) is #108, #110, #112, #115 and #118.

Hey!

Yes, those are "optional" main jets, that should work too, but using a 108 or 118 main jet for an old KLE 500, and not modify it, will probably make it go lean(108) or rich (118). Can't say this for sure, but I know that one size in main jet can do a noticeable difference! :)

If, for some reason, the 115 main jet will be too big for the new snorkel (as in it still is going rich), I'll just add some more holes in the back, but it will probably run just fine :)

/Mollrik

Hi
What revs does the bike pull too until the power tails off?

Hey, ShaunJ!

If you look at the page before this one, you will notice on the graphs that after 8000 RPMs, the power will dramatically decrease, if you are using the stock exhaust and/or aftermarket exhaust with the unequal headers.

Using an other exhaust with equal headers will let it rev a bit more, until the power falls dramatically (8500 is the peak for the graph with changed exhaust, and as you can see, the power doesn't decrease drastically, but after 10.500 RPM, it will skydive down (well, you should never let the KLE rev past 10.000 RPMs anyway, unless you like to do an engine rebuild, which I doubt you want :) ).

But if you are using stock exhaust, there's no need to rev it past 8000rpm!

/Mollrik

Maybe i should clarify a bit i was more interested in how the bike feels when its being ridden after all theres no wind resistance on a dyno so just wondering what revs the resistance overcomes the engine power.

OK!

This is my personal experience with the exhaust I have now (ER-5 exhaust, equal headers). Under 4000 RPMs, the bike doesn't pull that hard, between 4k-5k RPMs, you can feel that something is happening in the engine. It goes very smooth between 4k-5k, which is where I usually cruise in. between 5k-6k, it actually gives a burst of power, and after 6k, it's going wild (of course, not like an EX/GPZ 500, but it still has a lot to give after 6k)! and will rev freely for up to 9.5k-10k (well, I have not revved it past 10k, and have no intention to).

With my original exhaust, I think it vibrated alot (comparing to the exhaust I am using now) before 4k, but the symptoms were more or less the same over 4k, except after 8k - 9k, you could actually feel the power loss, but I would wait for someone else to shime in on this part about the original exhaust (SPYE, perhaps :) ), as my memory might be a bit "dim".

All of these "symptoms" are my personal experience, and if someone feels free to correct me, go ahead, but I think this should be quite accurate!

I hope this answered your question (if not fully, it might have given you some "pointers")

/Mollrik

Thanks Mollrik
thats exactly what i wanted

so for my setup (stage 3 K&N+DJ, arrow system) it should rev freely to approx 9-9.5k when my restrictor comes out instead of 7.5k

So top speed should be about 120-127mph with 17/42 gearing and 100mph achieved at approx peak torque 7.5k
Gearing Commander: Motorcycle Gearing Ratio Sprocket RPM Speed Chain Calculator

Hey!

Yeah, the arrow exhaust is probably the best exhaust you can get for a KLE 500, and will help a lot with the power delivery. Not sure about the K&N filter and DJ setup, but I am sure it will do wonders to the bike; keep me/us updated about the results when you are done (I expect you are not done with this setup yet)! :)

I'm not sure if this KLE 500 in the video has DJ installed, but he has an arrow system!

YouTube - Kawasaki KLE 500

(No, I do not encourage any kind of illegal driving, just want to show a KLE 500 with arrow exhaust :) )



/Mollrik

Well the restrictor won't come out till jan 2010 (yes i am counting the months)
As for the jetting the 130 DJ jet is equivalent to a 140 keihin jet so the stage 3 filters must increase flow a fair bit for a 130 jet to be needed and at the last spark plug change the plugs showed no signs of richness.

Hi

I did a high speed run on the highway last Sunday. The bike reaches max. 165 Km/h WOT. Not a km more. It was on a long flat with no wind. The bike pulls very nicely between 4500 - 6000 rpm. Not that I am complaining, the bikes power delivery is much better now with the new set-up, but it goes completely flat at 8000 rpm as should be expected. Perhaps I must try it with the DNA filter installed. BTW, I have removed the "clean air system". No differance in power.

Hey!

I got the new/big snorkel installed, with the 115 main jet. The bike runs just fine, topped around 175-180km/h (according to the speedometer) with the bike right now (no wind, and leaning over the tank). The bad side with the new snorkel - barely any intake sound :P

But it runs very well, no problem with the performance, except I have a slight feeling the 115 main jet is a bit on the rich side(so you should _probably_ not have to make it richer), but barely!

If anyone here's interested about the snorkel areas, I measured them yesterday, and the difference is huge!

The small snorkel has an area of ~6cm, and the big snorkel ~ 15.64cm (I use the "~" sign, as the measurements may not be 100% correct, but I think it shows the the differences :) )

I'll probably "chop the plugs" in some weeks, to see how well they burn, but I'm sure they should be fine, as the bike runs super!

edit: Yes, my bike probably has a higher top speed, due to the exhaust, and NOT the filter (the original exhaust, as stated by the tuning pages I linked, is just a huge engineering failure, due to the different header lengths), as if I am not mistaken, it were revving around 9000-9500RPM at that speed (quite sure over 8000 rpm, though :) )


/Mollrik

For those who are interested to see the difference between the small snorkel and the big snorkel, here's an image you can observe (I know SPYE has added two as well, but decided it could be interesting to see both of them "side-by-side" :))

The area of each snorkel...

Small Snorkel: 6cm²
Big Snorkel: 15.64cm²

PS: The following measurements may not be 100% correct; I used a caliper (non-digital) to measure these snorkels, but if any, they should be close :)

/Mollrik

Hi

I cleaned the DNA filter and installed it. There is a small improvement in the rev. response otherwise almost tha same. A WOT high speed run with the DNA filter installed gave the same results. Max 165 km/h. As you say it must be something to do with the unequel headers. Complete engineering blunder! Will change it to Arrow headers later when funds allow.

BTW how does the bike pull with the #115 main jets compared to the #112's?

My "stock" bike with 17/44 gearing would pull 175 km/h (in fact it felt like it had a tad more in it) The gearing makes about a 10 km/h difference to a 16 tooth front - so I'm not sure you have gained anything?? Sounds like you are definately a bit rich or lean on the main.

I believe if you have the bike jetted properly and exhaust/headers done you should get to 190 km/h no problems at all, and get there much quicker. I will test this once I rejet my bike...maybe a couple of weeks, but I suspect it is right.

Again for those who have not done the exhaust, your engine will run way smoother at lower rpm's. I think that 90 degree header into the other one is actually pushing some exhaust back towards the other cylinder making the engine run much rougher. My bike can pull 3rd from almost idle now and all with about 70% less vibes than before - and when jetted right it should have a little more in it.

I would keep the smaller intake duct to keep jet size down and maximise fuel efficiency given how well my bike was doing stock.

If you really want more top end - port the head - these engines really take to improved flow by all accounts from the ex500 racers out there. You would then be looking at way more power everywhere (4 stroke power is all about the head flow).

cya

Hmm, somehow I doubt that. A question about porting and polishing the cylinder head were asked at EX-500.com some days ago. The question was...

and the answer he recieved from FOG (he has raced these machines for years, tried more or less everything to improve HP, and his response was...)

FOG more or less knows this engine "in by out", so I'll take his word for it, and I doubt SPYE (me included) wants go get every last piece of HP from the engine as possible; reliability is also of importance!

According to FOG; if you want to get those extra HP, do the following...

(the last quote may not work with the KLE 500, as the KLE 500 has 254 degrees camshafts, instead of 290 degrees (GPZ/EX 500))

source: Port and polish cylinder head

The reason why SPYE's KLE will max 165km/h, and not more, is most likely due to the exhaust system AND the lower compression (9.8:1). By changing exhaust, you will probably increase the speed, and it will vibrate less.

My KLE runs just fine; but I somehow got the feeling that the 115 main jet is a bit too large, as it runs fine when cold, but as it gets warmer, I can feel "low speed stumbling" going WOT @ ~3000rpm (there's no power down there, but it shouldn't stumble (doesn't stumble when cold, which is a sign of it going rich)). It runs better now than with the 112 main jets, but I didn't use the big snorkel with the 112 main jets anyway, so perhaps it were asking for "more air"(pressure balance) with the 112 main jets.


edit: opened up the airbox with 2x8 mm holes (not much at all), and the low speed stumbling is now gone, and it still goes perfect at the highway. Can't say much about the top speed just yet, but got to 180km/h, before I had to roll off the throttle (still had a little bit more to give), so I am quite sure the jetting is more or less perfect now, but will have to do some more testing, when it's not windy (yes, windy today too) and raining :)



/Mollrik

Sorry, by porting I mean improving head flow as I stated?? Last time I checked, ports, cams, valves all are headwork. So yes they do take to improving flow as I thought, just more so in the valve work, less so on inlet ports.

I prefer reliability too - hence only exhaust work.

Thanks.

Hi

Do you know of any other needle options that can be tried that will work with the 112 jets. I have looked on the net for a sizing chart and other needle options for the keihin CVK carbs on our bikes, but can't find anything.

Perhaps you have found something. Only know N60D, N96J and N96L needles so far. I wonder how the N96L needles will work?

BTW. Do you not think the bike is running too rich at WOT thus causing the lack of top speed as the top speed was better with the old jets/needles (leaner), that is why I was asking about other needle options. The low/midrange is definately better with the new set-up.

Any thoughts?

Hey!

Actually, I did a lot of testing today with my setup (2 * N96J needles AND 2*115 main jets). I had a feeling that it was running rich, so I increased the intake "a lot", and I was right!

The bike is now more aggressive than it even has been before! 0-100 in no time, haven't tried top speed, but got to 160km/h faster than I ever have (and trust me, it had a lot more to give), so my bike was more or less "begging" for air.

Do NOT use the N96L nor N60D needles with the 112 main jets; those needles ARE leaner, and will most likely not work well with the 112 mains (I mean, the older KLEs had the N96J needles with the 112 mains)!

My tip, increase the intake, little by little, perhaps by adding some holes on the back of the airbox (like I did, 8mm each, but 5mm should work fine too!); did wonders to my bike, specially the low- and midrange, but of course, it feels a lot stronger on the higher revs as well! :)

About the jet needles; the CVK jet needles markings seem to be just random numbers (more or less), and you can not get much out of reading those. My tip; there are charts around the net, that people have build up, comparing different jet needles, so I took a look at the different "numbers", and couldn't see any relation between the different markings, and same goes for a lot of other people, that went the same approach!

(If anyone can prove me wrong about this, please, do not hesitate to do so, as this is of huge interest to me!)

My tip: keep the N96J needles, if any, shim them (doubt that will be necessary, though)!

(I do not take responsibility for anything that might happen to your bike, but as stated above; my bike was rich by going WOT, and by increasing the intake, the idle, low and middle throttle range seems to run perfect! (no stumbling or whatsoever, but it sure has a better response everywhere! (and sounds a lot better! :) )))

If you want to make sure you are rich in a particular circuit, you can either do the "plug chop" method, and/or compare the performance. If it runs better when the engine is cold comparing to when it's warm, you are most likely rich in that particular circuit (main jet, in this situation)

I also used other methods, like rolling the throttle from zero to WOT "slowly" (wide out throttle). I noticed that I had more power 7/8 throttle, than when I were going full throttle (this could also indicate a lean main jet, but as my performance improved by increasing the intake, it was obvious it was rich!). An other way is to go from full throttle, and then turn back slowly on the throttle. If it gains power, then it's too rich or lean (again, probably too rich)

A third method: go from zero throttle to WOT "instantly", and see if it bogs. If it does, it's probably rich. If it feels like the engine doesn't respond for a short moment, but will gain power after a small time, then it's most likely too lean (which I don't think will be the case here)

edit: just to clarify; the needles have no (very little) effect at WOT; the main jet is responsible for fuel delivery there, so going rich at WOT means that the main jet is too large, so do not think about changing jet needles if your problem is at WOT! :)


GS500 Wiki - Rejetting-Lean Or Rich

/Mollrik

Hi Again!

Just to confirm. Are you still using your airbox with the extra 8mm holes drilled in it. This seems like quite a popular modification as I have seen it mentioned on other sites/threads (can't remember where). Did it make a differance in the power delivery? I am thinking of doing it myself.

Where do you drill the holes? The best place for max airflow etc. Do you have a pic. as a example?

It seems that the KLE 500 is still starved of air even with the larger snorkel.

Yes, 6 holes, 8mm each, drilled on the back of the airbox, facing the rear of the bike. Do not have any pictures of it at the moment, but if you search
around this forum, you'll see where the holes usually are drilled (which is also the case here).

As stated before, my KLE both runs and sounds better (well, I love the new "growling" sound, but some dislike the sound, though there are ways to fix it, if one doesn't like it), specially the bottom and medium RPM-range has improved a lot! :)


/Mollrik

Hi

I asume you are using the airbox with the 8mm holes using the DNA filter and large snorkel.

Yes, I am using the DNA filter AND the bigger snorkel, AND with the 115 main jets installed, not the 112, so take that into consideration (6 holes might be too much for you, that is) :)

/Mollrik

OK, here are some updates!

I decided to see how the bike went with 8 holes drilled, instead of the 6 I had. The results - worse!

Somehow, it felt like it were struggling on acceleration, probably due to a lean mixture, so I went back to 6, and then it felt strong as usual! I have also tried 4 holes, but a huge difference in performance between 4 and 6 holes, so I am going to stay with the 6 holes, as it performs just great with them!

No, I did not try to run the bike with 7 holes, but as I think the performance went down hill quite dramatically with 8 holes; I felt no need to try 7 by then (I rather go a little rich, if anything)

Now the bike runs great, except that it needs a new chain and sprockets, which I will order tomorrow! :thumbup1:

*dramatically might be the wrong word, but there was a small performance loss with the 8 holes.

/Mollrik

OK, more info...

I have driven around with the new settings for around 1000KMs, and this is what I've gathered...

The fuel consumption has actually improved (or the same as before, but not more, which is a big bonus!) , 0.5l/10km while driving around with different speeds and some "hard" (7k-8k) accelerations. Haven't done much highway cruising yet, as I've been testing my carb settings a lot, but it all seems fine now.

OK, how about the performance? I must say that I'm impressed. I haven't tried to top my KLE 500, but there's some new found power that has NOT been there before! Got to 170km/h quickly, got to 175km/h today before I decided to shut down the throttle due to traffic (highway), but I'm confident that my KLE 500 can reach at least 185km/h right now (190km/h might be too positive). Just to clarify. The acceleration is improved, going WOT @ 140km/h, and my KLE actually feels like it has a lot of power stored for use! (going from 140km/h - 160km/h really fast!) Never felt this before! :thumbup1:



I'll give you people more updates about the top speed later, when I have the time and the mood for such driving, but I'm really impressed so far!


SPYE, how's it going for you? Modified the airbox? The results? Keep me updated! :)

/Mollrik

Hi there

The bike is going well. I checked the plugs the other day and they look great. They do not look like they are burning rich at all. I am still dissapointed at the top end. Conclusion: probably uneven exhaust headers or she needs a bit more air.

I am going to try out the airbox mod. The one that is in German. I have someone that will translate it for me this week. I wonder why they chose that method (the pipe with the holes) to get extra air in the airbox. Perhaps for better and more even air flow. Any thoughts?

I will send it to you once I have the translation.

Airbox mod. (German):

http://winweb373.sr23.firestorm.ch/t...ltertuning.pdf

Hey!

Well, I really don't know about the extra airflow with that setup by adding "tubes" inside the air box, but it should lean out the mixture (in the sense of opening up the air box, but the "tube" part is something I do not have much knowledge of), which should result in more horse power and probably better fuel economy, of course, this only applies if the bike is rich. Are you sure you are reading your spark plugs correctly?

One thing I don't like with that setup is that you actually have to drill the snorkel. Either you could just ignore that part, or duct tape it in case the results would be for the worse!

Have been speculating around about the snorkel. It really can't be good, as it more or less makes a "U-turn", which should result in more restriction, comparing to a "straight" snorkel, but the reason why I am not removing the snorkel, is because of all the hot air from the engine, which should then enter the air box. I rather make holes in the back then.

I still think that you could drill 2-6 (probably max 4, as I have a bigger main jet) (8mm each) holes in the back instead, and see how your bike performs, as it seems a lot easier, but if you want to try that setup (Rimfire), go for it! :thumbup1:

Keep my updated!

edit: translated version can be found here (google translate!): English version of the air box mod , of course; this can be hard to understand!

edit2: about your exhaust. It may not be the only reason for your top speed. I mean, how does it accelerate if you go WOT @ 130-140? Quick and powerful response, or do you barely feel anything, except that you can see the needle moving slowly? I'm quite sure your KLE is running rich, but yes, your top speed is of course restricted due to the exhaust, but a rich mixture can make the KLE 500 lose horse power as well (I mean, going from 4 to 6 holes, and it felt like an other motorcycle!)


/Mollrik

Hi

I started the "Rimfire" mod. today. I drilled the two 16mm holes on the side of the airbox as indicated and could'nt help taking the bike for a spin as is, with only the holes. Well, the bike certainly pulls quicker. High speed run was better. Now 170 km/h! Accelaration between 120 and 140 a lot quicker now. I will continue the mod. tomorrow. I am sure I am on the right track now. The bike was air starved!

Will keep you updated.

Hey!

Nice to hear about the new top speed of 170km/h. A 5km/h increase in top speed is actually nice, and remember. You both have drilled holes, and have the DNA filter installed!

What does this say about the full power KLE 500 in general? That there are some extra horsepower to get, just by letting it breath more! (when I bought me KLE 500 -99, it was more or less as lean as it could get, without making it stumble, as I just drilled 1(one) 8mm hole, and that was enough to actually make it stumble!)

One cannot fully blame the camshafts for the "low" horse powers, as they are by no means the reason for the 10hp difference between the full power KLE 500 and the GPZ 500. The camshafts increase the HP by around 5hp; the rest comes from better breathing! I'm quite sure that if you would take GPZ 500 carbs, drill the airbox for a good air-fuel-mixture; you'll probably get around 56-57hp (crank) (the GPZ itself has 60hp, and notice that I said there is a ~5hp difference between the camshafts! Well, the GPZ 500 is also rich from factory, and modifying the airbox grants another 2 hp!)

I have no idea how many horse power my KLE 500 delivers right now, but I am quite sure it's a bit over 50hp (~54? No idea, actually, just speculating, though I have no real need to get it dynoed, as I think it goes just fine, and have no desire to get those last horse powers you probably could get from this engine, as I love how my KLE performs)!

If you, by any chance, will get it dynoed, please, post the dyno graphs, as it could be interesting to see how well it performs now, as you have dynoed it with stock settings! Then, one can truly see the the performance gain (hopefully, you have not lost performance with these modifications) :)

edit: An other interesting thing to point out! With these modifications, the low and middle RPM-range is probably (well, I think it pulls a lot better in that region!) a lot better too! Peak horse power is not always interesting when tuning, as a better low to mid performance can result in a more pleasurable ride!

/Mollrik

Edit 1
 

Hi

I finished off the "Rimfire" modification and boy, does it make a differance. There is a improvement at low/midrange and high speed is much better. Top speed not much more (170 km/h), but getting there a lot quicker now. The bike does not feel so much "out of breath" at high speed. Accelarating 120 ~ 140 Km/h a lot faster.

I struggled a bit to get 16mm PVC pipe over here as it is not a common size.
BTW, I did not bother drilling a hole in the snorkel as it runs fine. Can't understand the purpose of this. Any thoughts?

The last thing I need to do is get decent header pipes for the bike. Perhaps a"Arrow" or a custom job. :thumbup1:

The drilled holes you see on the pipe in the pic. is 5.5mm. I was thinking of drilling it out to 8mm and see how it goes.

Edit 1: I drilled the holes out to 8mm. Guess what? The bike goes even better now! :clap: :funmeteryes:

Hey!

Glad you got it sorted out! About the arrow exhaust; you could probably get a custom header for a cheaper price, but that would probably require you to bring your exhaust to them for measurements, unless you can do that part!

An arrow exhaust costs around 600 euro, if I am not mistaken; I felt that I didn't want to pay that kind of money myself for an exhaust for the KLE 500, as there are cheaper options available. But did your KLE 500 run better with those pipes inside, rather than without them (can't see how that helps)?

/Mollrik

Hi

Yep, after some thought I think I will have to shelve the "Arrow" exhaust idea as it is also very expensive over here. It's about R 8000-00 (South African Rand) over here if I am not mistaken. I will probably go for a once off custom job. I must yust find someone down here in Cape Town that is willing to do a once off job. I want equil length but also want the pipe under the bash plate (offroad riding).

If the bike goes better with the "Rimfire" mod. vs plain holes, I'm not sure.

Attached find pics. of my bike on a recent bike weekend in the Cederberg mountain range north of Cape Town. It's a very popular route for Adventure bikers. Fantastic rugged scenery and a lot of different riding conditions, some quite technical. :cool4:

Hey!

Long time since I last made a post in this particular thread, so I thought that I could give you some updates about my KLE 500.

Well, not much have changed, except that I changed the chain and sprockets for the KLE 500 two days ago; however, there was a slight problem! I've received a front sprocket with 1 tooth less!

"Damnit!", I thought to myself. I could either return the sprocket and change to a "correct" one with 17 teeth, or go for the one I bought, and I decided to go for the one I bought, mostly due to the reason that I have allready "released" the rear wheel, and I worked with the KLE outside, not in a garage.

OK, everything installed. I decided to take it for a short spin, and I was shocked!

It felt A LOT stronger everywhere in the RPM range. Of course, this is due to the front sprocket, which also results in "moving" the RPMs 400-500 higher than before, but really. This made a huge improvement!

6k RPM @ 110km/h, instead of 5.5k, if I am not mistaken, but I can live with that, and the engine itself shouldn't take any damage by that either (I rarely visit the highway anyway).

Of course, the maximum speed is probably reduced, but it is so worth it! :thumbup1:

Let me restate - it feels like a totally different motorcycle with the new front sprocket (in a positive manner)!

I can not answer if the fuel consumption has changed yet, as I have not driven far enough to actually measure it, but I'll give you more updates about it as soon as possible!

edit: Just passed 20000km with my KLE 500! :)

/Mollrik

Hey there.

I am glad the sprocket change made a differance. You have definately got a lot more torque down below it seems. I have just past the 24000 km mark on my bike and did a tappet clearance check and adjustment. It is one heck of a mission to check the tappets. If you check the manual you will see what I mean.

The bike is going great now with the "Rimfire" modification. I get to 160 in no time and it holds the speed much better. I am contemplating trying out the #115 main jets. If I remember you said there is quite a differance in performance between the #112 and #115 main jets. I will have to order the OEM jets as I can't get the aftermarket ones in that size.

BTW. Fuel consumption is not too bad at about 20 km/l. :thumbup1:

Hey!

First of all, there's no need to go from 112 to 115, barely any difference at all - might even go too rich now, so keep the 112 main jets!

Yes, I did a valve clearance check (think that's what you mean) around 6000 km ago, but might have to do one again; there are some small (quiet) valve ticking going around, not sure if it has been there before. Do you hear any valve ticking on your KLE 500 (according to some people, this is completely normal, but want to double check with you too)?

/Mollrik

Hi

I think I will stay with the #112 main jets then.

As for the valve "ticking" sound mine is the same. After checking and adjusting the clearances I still have that "ticking" sound. I also don't think it is something to worry about. Someone once said: "A loose tappet is a happy tappet". (not too loose of course!)

Hello everybody!
My name is T-Rider and I am new to the HUBB. I'm from the Netherlands and I own a '93 KLE for something more than a year now. I read all the above and I was wondering if the Arrow exhaust will also fit on the older KLE models. Did anyone of you tried this? I was wondering since the site of Arrow says it is only for the new model, but the engine and frame did'n change a bit in layout (only cat's and some other carb settings right?), so I thought it should fit.... anyone tried? Thank in advance

I'm not sure if they still make an exhaust for the KLE its not listed on their site anymore and searching returns no results.

However if you can get one i would try finding someone with a newer model and do a side by side comparison just to be sure

OK, time for an update of how my beloved KLE 500 is running.

As I've stated before, I now have a front sprocket with 1 tooth less, for a better acceleration, but which costs me with a lower top speed.

The top speed of my KLE 500 at the moment is 175km/h, losing around 10km/h with the new set-up, but it sure is worth it, as the acceleration from 0 to 100 goes within a flash (~5.5 sec last time I checked).

I also realised that my KLE 500 went rich at WOT (as I stated with the 115 main jet), so I opened up the airbox with some more holes (as I also stated before), and it seems like it runs a bit stronger now, specially in the higher RPM region (where one usually loses HP with a rich mixture). An other way I realised it was rich were due to the fact that it went a little bit better cold than warm.

So what is my opinion about the KLE 500 with the modifications I've made? Well, it feels like a whole new motorcycle. It performs really well, after 5k RPM, it starts to give some signs that something is happening inside the engine, as if it wants me to go WOT (read this with a "grain of salt"), it skyrockets after 5k while going WOT (well, of course, this should be the case with stock settings as well, but I'm positive that the power delivery now is improved a lot, if we should compare it to stock)

Will I continue modifying the bike with larger main jets and perhaps change camshafts for more performance (read - higher duration)? For the moment, probably not, but who knows, that could change :thumbup1:

It's obvious that the KLE 500 has a lot of power stored inside the engine, but it needs some modifications to actually achieve that, as the carb settings are rather lean (doesn't include the KLEs pre -96), and the intake is rather strangled as well (small snorkel (I've made some measurements, comparing the small snorkel to the bigger one in this particular thread, so scroll back, and you'll see them)).

What about the fuel consumption with my setup? Well...

0.5liter/10km, which includes normal driving (some highway, some citydriving and so forth). I have no idea about the fuel consumption if I should only be driving on the highway, but I'm sure it would be better :thumbup1:


Will I buy a new bike soon? Probably not, as I love the characteristics of the engine! Even if you go WOT @ 4k RPM, it actually delivers decent power.

I hope that this post hasn't been redundant as of my previous posts, but hopefully, it hasn't :)

It would be interesting to hear from more people what modifications you have done, and your results!

Regards,

Mollrik

Hi there.

I am glad your bike is going well. I have ordered the #115 jets as I am very curious to see how she goes with them in. I get the feeling the bike needs a little extra fueling on the main jet after the "rimfire" mod. As mentioned the motor has a lot potential. I read somewhere that the airbox compares to that of a 50cc bike. Bad design!

Will keep you posted how she goes with the #115 jets. :thumbup1:

FYI

Hi again

I installed the #115 jets and there is quite a big improvement. The speed picks up much quicker. I now get to 170 km/h without a problem and quite quickly. The bike will happily cruze at 150 km/h all day. Not sure about the fuel economy but I will keep an eye on it. Wonder if the #118 jets will work? I seem to be going in the right direction.

Hey!

Nice to hear that you got such a great improvement!
I'm quite happy with the 115 main jet, but something tells me that I'll install 130 main jets and shim the needles (to meet GPZ 500 carb settings), and see how that would work, instead of just improving this in small increments :thumbup1:

Though if one should go for a 130 (or a size or two smaller) main jet, I'm sure the snorkel will not longer be a choice (unless one wants to drill most parts of your airbox (though removing the snorkel will result in more intake noise))

If you, however, are going for bigger main jet sizes, please, keep me updated!
Winter is soon here, so I'll probably do some carb modifications by then (though I'll probably wait till somewhere early next year).

Regards,

Mollrik

Hi

I'm sure if you want to go with those jet sizes then you may as well go for the Dynojet Stage #3. You will have to take out the airbox and install induvidual K&N cone air filters. Not sure what the Dynojet part no. is for the KLE 500. Should give realy good performance.

You don't have to use cone filters with the dynojet stage3 kit an aftermarket standard style filter will be fine it just means you will need to use the smaller jets in the kit You get 126/130/134 size dynojet jets which is equivalent to 135/140/145 Keihin jets
Keihin jets vs. Dynojet jets - ThumperTalk

Hey!

As I pointed out in an other thread, you can NOT, and I repeat, NOT, use cone filters on a motorcycle (or any machine, for that matter) using CV-carbs (Constant Velocity), without a HP-drop. If you really have to, you must make some kind of restriction to it (have been some discussion about this on the other forum I'm visiting), but it will result in A LOT of time to actually make it run fine (read, don't do this :thumbup1:).

First, you need a laminar flow, which you will not get from those cone filters, resulting in a slide which wont lift as it should, resulting in a huge HP-drop. Second, it's all about pressure, and by adding cone filters, you will "mess" with the pressure balance needed with CV-carbs. If you really want to use cone filters, change to butterfly type (CR), but I think it's just "over the limit", so to speak :)

I will not use dynojet kit. First, I think it's too expensive, and their parts are questionable in quality, have heard several rumours of the shims actually break down :S

I am thinking of going for 120 or 125 in main jet size, and then shim the needles to remove the lean-ness in their respective operation area, but so far, I will wait with the changes. :)

Regards,

Mollrik

If thats true how come mine runs perfectly with cone filters and took about 80 miles of riding and adjusting to find the sweet spot

Hello!

Of course, you can make it run "fine", with no stumbling, but that doesn't necessary mean that you have gained horse powers. If you have dyno-graphs to prove me wrong, please, upload them, as I have seen way too much to tell the exact opposite. You might gain a hp or two in the upper range, but usually, the low and mid range suffers a lot, and it's the "area under the curve" that's interesting.

CV-carbs works differently from most other carbs, which is why POD-filters do not work as well with them...

pod filters?

A Question about PCV Valve / Pod Filters - Please Help

"Very simple ,they don't work at all . CV carbs require a airbox. If you must have Pods you'll need to change carbs to Flatslides.

FOG" (FOG more or less has more knowledge about these engine than anyone else, he has tried more or less every way to improve horse power, and pods are not the answer for it)

And yes, Dragknee said - "i must have a factory freak then, because my bike runs fine with pods".

Airbox & Pods ....

If you read this thread, he then wrote - "You can use pods but you lose power on this bike with them. I lost about 10 which doesn't sound like much until you consider the bike only has 50 to begin with..."

YouTube - how motorcycle and atv carbs work (10:30)

Yes, you might say that the GPZ-500 is not tuned the same as the KLE 500. Well, that's true, but both share a Keihin CV 34mm carburetor, only with different jets and needles (and diaphram, I think); they also share the same engine, except for different camshafts (290 degrees, instead of 254, though that doesn't matter (barely) in this situation).

Yes, the standard airbox for the KLE 500 may not be the most optimal one (from what I've read), but that's why one mods it for pressure balance (or like some say, improve air flow).

OK, that's enough (though there's more to it, if one just looks around even further) :)

If you still think that I'm incorrect, then that's fine. I've been reading enough about this to know that I'll not use POD-filters, but if you say your bike runs fine, then that's fine (though I'll still doubt it, dyno graphs would be interesting to see :) ).

Regards,

Mollrik

I didn't say you were incorrect more just curious as to why you are so opposed to using cone filters as my experience with them has only been positive.
As for my bikes performance no dyno graph but i have gained an extra (indicated) 10mph topspeed with the 33hp restrictor still installed (Washer mounted inside rubber intake manifold to reduce intake diameter)

As for flatspots the only flatspot is below 3k which i very rarely use so not much of an issue (This appears to be more of lean pilot screw problem as i have richened the pilot in the past and this reduced the stumble just haven't got round to adjusting it properly)

Hi

Thanks for the tip. You have done your research well.

Question: Dont you think the #120/#125 will be too large for the N96J needle? What is considered the max main jet size you can match up with the N96J needle? The parts fiche for that carb set-up goes to #118.
I can understand why bike manufacturers are going the fuel injection route. Not so much endless fiddling around.

By the way, has anyone fitted a fuel injection set-up to a kle 500/ EX 500/ ER-5/ GPZ 500 motor. I am sure I have seen it somewhere.

Keep the info coming. :thumbup1:

Hey!

Well, it's hard to say, but I'm sure that anything bigger than 118 main jets, and you'll have to shim the needles. I have 120 main jets at home, and thinking about installing them, and shim them with 1 .5mm washer for each needle, and see how it operates, or I'll go even further and get 125 main jets (as stated, main jets are dirt cheap (2$ each)), and perhaps add 2 washers for each needle. You'll notice if the needles are too rich or too lean (well, at least I think I can, as I cured the richness in the "needle-area" before, and it went fine after that (it stumbled quickly)).

I'm sure though, if you just shim the needles, you'll get it to run just fine!

edit: Have you considered if you'll continue increasing the main jets to size 118, or if you'll go even further? :)

Regards,

Mollrik

Hi

When you mean "shimming" the needles you will be raising them a bit and thus making it a bit richer. I am strongly contemplating the #118 jets as the #115's made quite a differance. WOT is a lot stronger now and doesent feel "flat" (at WOT).

Hello!

With shimming, I mean placing a washer to raise the needle, causing it to be richer. I'm temped to actually try 125 or 130 main jets, and shim the needles with 2 washers (3 if that should be necessary, but I do not think so) and see how she runs, though I'll have to do some thinking before attending this :)

Regards,

Mollrik

For those interested some of what is said here is a bit misleading (maybe completely correct for the kle but not all bikes!!):

You can use CV carbs with pods - but yes its not as good as say with FCR's and most of what people go on about is the lack of ability to tune the whole rev range with a CV - difficult. BUT some bikes (mainly in-line 4's) can work real well with pods and cv's, producing about 15% more power (eg oil colled gsxr's) - but loose a tiny bit of bottom end.

Some pods, like BMC do a single large pod with dual carb inlets, so they aid in balancing pressure and sort of act like a very mini airbox - these are often better to use than two separate pods. Airbox is generally always better - gives best flat torque curve as long as it lets enough air in.

Pods generally dont work well on singles and twins - you CAN get more top end HP with pods, but torque curve is very yuck and you WILL often loose bottom end. BUT some engines will take it well - I used to have a TTR600 that worked well with pods as it had twin carb inlets into the head. With pods it could make big top end power - way more than with its whopping big airbox opened up.

Pods shorten inlet tract length, which does not help with torque and bottom end, but can aid top end - that's why some cars have variable intake tracts to provide best power anywhere in the rev range.

For those how rave about airboxes aiding in laminar flow etc - thats not true - a carbs inlet venturi and intake length will always dictate flow condition - not to mention head port shape/valves etc. The airbox is all about pressure regulation and harmonic resonance.

cya - and if you want to use pods I would suggest use with smoothbores as the stock carbs do the job but are not that great by any standard for tuning.

Hey, great post, Jimmy101, have been reading something similar to what you wrote, so I stand corrected (removing the airbox can actually work fine for some motorcycles using CV carbs) :) .

OK, I have a question (or several) for you people out there, and here it is!

I discovered recently that my float level were set at 19 mm, which is OK, according to the manual (17 +- 2mm), but it's as lean as it can go (recommended wise (manual)). I'm feeling some slight hesitation while going WOT at around 3K RPM (for testing purposes, of course), and could this be the reason for it?

Been doing some reading, and according to Factory pro's "tuning guide", which is specially written for CV carbs, the float height could be responsible for the slight hesitation I feel - CV Carb Tuning Procedures

I also have been reading through a german manual (not german myself, but enough to understand what I was looking for) for the KLE 500 ('91), and there it says the float level is 17mm (not 17mm +- 2, just 17mm) (which is the same for the GPZ 500 (or rather, recommended)).

Have anyone checked their float levels, and if so, could give me some clarity about this?

I'm using 115 main jets and the N96J needles, and they are working just fine, might go up to 120 main jets (will probably not go up any higher at the moment), and shim the needles with 1 washer.

Remember, I've been changing jets and needles from the lean version, which has 92 and 95 main jets, and leaner needles (N60D and N96L), fattening up the low mixture screw (not much was needed), without doing anything to the float height, which is why I think it could be responsible :)

edit: Winter is ascending, so there's not much riding from my part (pansy!), which is why I feel the urge (and have the time) to actually do some work on my KLE 500 now :)

Regards

Mollrik

Hi

I installed the #118 jets yesterday and took her for a spin. Guess what? The bike pulls even better now. It accelarates a bit faster and high speed cruizing is a pleasure. Low down also feels better. I was getting about 20 km/l with the #115 jets with city riding.

There is no flat spots or stumbling. :thumbup1:

Hey!

Nice to hear the results! :thumbup1:

I'll install the #120 main (#118 main jets are triple the price, as they have to make a special order for those; jets in the size of +-5 are cheap (100, 105, 110 e.t.c.)) jets then, but have you measured your float height recently?

I might actually set it to 17mm (according to the '91 manual and GPZ 500 manual(s) (and people on the GPZ 500 forum I visit quite often) usually recommends that), and shim the needles with 1 washer. The only slight hesitation is at low speed (~5-10km/h), low rpms, first gear, and WOT there, slight as in barely noticed, but I know it's there, so I will probably change the float height to 17 mm, install the 120 main jets, and shim the needles.

Have you modified the airbox further with the new jets, or just let it get more fuel?

edit: If I remember correctly, this more or less only occurs when the engine is cold, which could mean that it's a bit lean, but cold engines doesn't run as well as warm engines anyway, but I'll give you an update as soon as I know (might actually take a while) :)

Regards,

Mollrik