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-   -   wants to make my Africa twin tubeless (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/honda-tech/wants-make-my-africa-twin-64718)

omar mansour 9 Jun 2012 23:03

wants to make my Africa twin tubeless
 
im so happy with my AT
need to know any idea how to make it tubeless ??? is there any after market solution?
cheers :scooter:

Caminando 19 Jun 2012 18:45

This has been discussed before on HU and it's potentially lethal.

Don't do it.:thumbdown:

Huan 19 Jun 2012 22:13

Why is it so lethal?
Its possible to do it with the Tubliss inserts, and Chris Scott did it with some 3M 5200 sealant.
He has a writeup on his site about his experience in Morocco with the sealant filled wheels and the pros and cons.

Chris Scott 19 Jun 2012 23:23

Thanks for linking, Huan. There's also an HU discussion here.

While in the US recently I met a bloke who used to build choppers and the regular way of sealing spoked rims was to vulcanise (rubber weld?) a band around the spoke nipples on a rim designed for tubeless tyres.

I also picked up a pair of 19" Tubliss out there and will be fitting them to my GS in a couple of weeks. Some dirt riders I spoke to had tried Tubliss and weren't completely impressed; occasional air loss when you hit a rock hard, but that's on low-flying CRs and KXs. Not a likely scenario on my GS, but of it happens just pump up.

I think Tubliss works with non-tubeless rims, but for the vulcanising/sealant method you need rims with the seating lip (see this).

Omar, you need to check if your AT runs tubeless rims. I has a Tenere in the late 80s which (annoyingly) had tubeless lipped DID rims, even though it ran tubes, so your AT from the same era may be the same.

Ch

Caminando 20 Jun 2012 09:48

In the discussion (some time ago) it was stated that if this set up has a puncture, then there is a massive and sudden deflation because unlike on a tubeless designed wheel, there is nothing to hold the tyre to the rim in a way which allows a safe stop. I'm talking about road use.

But I wish you well if you want to do this - you go for it. But keep in mind your insurance problems even if you believe this is a safe conversion.

omar mansour 20 Jun 2012 23:20

thanks all for your replies ,
in my last trip through Africa i have as many puncture as i can remember ,even i had elephant skin inners ,had slime inside ,it was really pain in the a...
to get your luggage off ,get the tire off ,the inner tube off ,fix it and put every thing on
grrrrrrrrrrrr
its my only problem with AT
usually when i ride its a mix of high ways ,bad roads and off roads ,i don't deflate tires as i don't do that really dunes crossing ,
and still need a clear way to make my AT tubeless ,sorry if I'm being silly
ride safe always

Chris Scott 21 Jun 2012 00:10

Quote:

it was stated that if this set up has a puncture, then there is a massive and sudden deflation...
And what is the difference in the above scenario with tubed tyres?
None.

1. The tube bursts.
2. The tyre collapses immediately and possibly comes off the rim
3. You (hopefully) bring the bike to a controlled stop.

I realise these are not your words Caminardo, but I'm afraid what is quoted is nonsense.

The safety benefits of tubeless is that they don't lose air quickly in a typical puncture because there is no tyre-supporting inner tube suddenly losing all pressure at once. That's the whole point.
With a tubeless tyre the air can only escape through the tyre's puncture hole, but typically that is blocked by the nail plugged in the tyre carcass and so deflation happens slowly around the nail (or may no happen at all). A tube on the other hand goes in seconds, like a popped balloon - and that can be lethal if going very fast or in mid-bend (though in all my years my experience has always been the 1-2-3 scenario, above).

And in an untypical puncture, like riding over a set of spikes or a sharp rock edge - that may indeed cause sudden deflation, whatever the tyre.

If converting from tubes, tubeless rims must be used (or Tubliss), but this point has been made.

On my old desert car I initially ran tubes as the 4x4 lore suggested at the time, and had endless punctures (because among other things, heat is created from tyre-tube friction). I switched to tubeless - far fewer punctures.

And as for ease of puncture repair? No contest.

Some of the many good reasons to ride on tubeless tyres.

Ch

PS: to keep things OT, the question of domestic insurance when modifying a bike for overland travel might be (has been?) discussed in another thread.

Caminando 21 Jun 2012 07:39

Yes I agree about tubeless tyres when punctured. I too would like tubeless tyres. But Omar is talking about an AT running tubeless. And that's quite a different matter. I'm not sure if it's been made sufficiently clear what risks there are here.

But I recommend to you Chris, that you read the thread "DIY Tubeless Rims" of 21Aug 2008 where you and others discuss this issue in detail. I believe you began the thread, and where I learned much about the issue. It's the discussion I referred to above.

I particularly suggest you all read Grant's comments there, in relation to the "nonsense" you mention. His comment struck me as reasonable and not "nonsense", more so than other earlier talk of "bodging" it up, which was not reasonable.

As I understand it, Tubeliss is for Motocross only. Is that right?

Linzi 21 Jun 2012 16:06

Rim Design.
 
Yes, as Caminando says the important point is that rims which are not designed to take tubeless tyres can't grip a delfated tyre with no tube present. I was warned of exactly this with the old cast wheels on 1970's Moto Guzzis. They'd not hold a valve properly either. I am forced to use tubes in tubeless tyres, legal and technically OK, but with the blowout risk. There's simply no way round it. Yikes, and sorry for criticising Chris Scott who knows a hell of a lot more than I do. Lindsay.

dstehouwer 21 Jun 2012 21:35

just practice patching your innner tube, and leave it all original. Or (if that is possible??) swap the spokes/rims on the bike to tubeless versions.
(although I can never recommend BMW parts on a Honda AT ;-))

else: don't risk it, the stock rims are simply not made for tubeless.

estebangc 21 Jun 2012 22:08

It's really worth checking Tubliss site and see how the whole system works, which is pretty thoughtful.

I don't have an opinion, this goes beyond me knowledge, but the explanation of Tubliss sounds pretty logical. Actually, the motto is "understanding is believing": "the seal is formed against the inside of the tire itself (not the rim)" and the inner bladder that seals the tire -which has a pressure of 100psi- is independent form the tire, so you can deflate the tire to lower pressures, while keeping the 100psi on the sealing part. Worth a good look.

Esteban

Caminando 23 Jun 2012 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by estebangc (Post 383396)
It's really worth checking Tubliss site and see how the whole system works, which is pretty thoughtful.

I don't have an opinion, this goes beyond me knowledge, but the explanation of Tubliss sounds pretty logical. Actually, the motto is "understanding is believing": "the seal is formed against the inside of the tire itself (not the rim)" and the inner bladder that seals the tire -which has a pressure of 100psi- is independent form the tire, so you can deflate the tire to lower pressures, while keeping the 100psi on the sealing part. Worth a good look.

Esteban

:thumbup1:

It seems to be a really useful product. For OffRoad Use only, it says on the tin.

estebangc 23 Jun 2012 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caminando (Post 383539)
:thumbup1:

It seems to be a really useful product. For OffRoad Use only, it says on the tin.

Absolutely agree: probably the biggest point here is insurance cover and/or safety, being both tied to each other, I'm aware of that.

If I may think aloud, risking to get in deep "sheet", I see it like this:

1) Obtaining permits for a product in such a core issue as modifying tires from "tube to tubeless" does not come overnight, it requires lots of testing, certifications and therefore a huge investment by the maker. It0s a business, so that decision will solely be based on sales increase they may forecast if they have such "certification".

2) When people in HUBB -and I assume elsewhere- refer to tube into tubeless conversion the main concern is offroad, even though there are advantages on tarmac.

3) If all that were right, then it could be inferred that Tubliss conversion might not be less safe for on-road use (it could actually be the other way around, but I don't affirm it, it could be much unsafer as well), but it'd be only that companies like Tubliss may not be willing to invest in that "certification" for on road use just for a few more sales and so prefer the disclaimer and stay on the cheap/safe side.

So, I'd say: don't use it on tarmac, 1st due to insurance concerns, 2nd for safety, since it's labeled "for off road use" and your insurance won't cover a penny (100% agreement with CAMINANDO) and that especially applies to Europe/North America. BUT, if you have enough of punctures in Africa and plan off road there... then you decide if you want to give it a try.

Caminando 23 Jun 2012 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by estebangc (Post 383576)

2) When people in HUBB -and I assume elsewhere- refer to tube into tubeless conversion the main concern is offroad, even though there are advantages on tarmac.

:thumbup1:I agree with all of your post except the quote above.

HU is not an offroad site, though offroading is part of it. Many assume that it is about offroad here, and I'd say that's not the case. Neither is it a RTW site. HU IMO, is about travelling on a bike, long distance or otherwise, and doesn't restrict itself to offroad. Most long distance travel is onroad, therefore the need to satisfy insurers about tyre conversions. Some of the stuff discussed on the DIY thread I mentioned above is.....controversial, let's say.

estebangc 23 Jun 2012 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caminando (Post 383598)
:thumbup1:I agree with all of your post except the quote above.

HU is not an offroad site, though offroading is part of it. Many assume that it is about offroad here, and I'd say that's not the case. Neither is it a RTW site. HU IMO, is about travelling on a bike, long distance or otherwise, and doesn't restrict itself to offroad. Most long distance travel is onroad, therefore the need to satisfy insurers about tyre conversions. Some of the stuff discussed on the DIY thread I mentioned above is.....controversial, let's say.

:oops2: Quick apologies, by no means I wanted to restrict the scope of HUBB to off road, I see it exactly as you say, a very open place (there's 4WD/cars and bicycle sections, which I find really good!). I meant that the tubeless conversion concerm mainly regards off-road use (not HUBB). Only due to my non-native lack of proficiency.

Yes, as many other threads, controversial. Thus, good to hear differing opinions in a respectful way.

-E

PS: Never follow football, but Spain in quarters now is a different thing... and other Spanish friends did not arrive yet!


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