Warning for GPS with speedcameras in France
 

Just this afternoon I saw an article in a paper that there is a new law in France. If you have a GPS system with speedcamera locations, you get a € 1500 fine ! even when it is switched off.

Yep, they have indeed. But I would put money on it being an almost un-enforceable law. Unless you do something stupid I cant see the French Fuzz doing random stops to check sat navs. Most sensible people will disable it anyway while in France.
I'm more worried about the introduction of High viz vests.

I've heard about this and I've also read other reports saying that it only applies to radar detectors - that is machines that actively detect the radar emissions and not to sat-navs just with camera locations as poi's. Anyone with more info?

The French prohibition on radar detectors has been in place for half a dozen or so years. The offence is to have them in the car - switched on or off, using them or not. Rather like having drugs - you have them you're done, using them is immaterial.

I was recently alerted to this new rule prohibiting having speed camera locations in a device (operating or not) is now also an offence.

Next it will be an offence to remember where they were from the last time you went that way!

and an incoming new law in France for all drivers (guessing this to mean anyone in charge of a motor vehicle) to carry a breathalyser....

so check list now could be read as...

• Hiviz jacket
• Warning triangle
• Bulb set
• Spare tyre and/or kit availability to repair puncture inc. inflator pump.
• First aid kit
• Fire extinguisher
• Certificate of Insurance
• V5
• und so weiter und so weiter...

:innocent: how many more kilos O' Lord , how many more kilos....

OK OK I'll get my coat...:blushing:

Hi

The last thing I read about HiViz in France suggested you needed 150 square cm of reflective stuff, the aim being to insist bikers wear a hiviz ARMBAND at least. A fair few jackets may have that amount of reflective stuff on it anyway perhaps?

From Hi-vis gear compulsory in France from next year - | Motorcycle News | Bike News | Motorbike Videos | MCN

"Motorcyclists in France face compulsory high visibility clothing from next year.
The French government is pushing ahead with plans for compulsory hi-vis riding gear despite protests.
From January 1 2013, riders of bikes over 125cc will have to wear a reflective item of clothing under the French version of the Highway Code.
The reflective area must be on the upper body and cover at least 150 square centimetres. The requirement will apply to riders and pillions and is likely to affect foreigners travelling in France.
Failure to comply could lead to a fine of €68."

People seem to link the hiviz vest required in cars etc to bikes too easily? I may be wrong though? Or could you just put a 125cc sticker on the side of your 1200GS so they wouldn't look at you in the first place? ;)

I think Garmin and TomTom offer updates for databases with the illegal bits removed, or renamed as dangerous junctions etc. I suppose that also means a road map from last year will also be illegal? So all the people heading to Le Mans this year will have a fine and their maps and gps's confiscated on the way, and be lost in France forever?!?!?!?! Doomed!!!!

(Does that also mean that the police will have to confiscate your car if the gps with camera locations is built in?! ;))


:)

Well at least Garmin Navis can be protected with a password so in case you get stoped you switch it of. I dont think they can fource you to give them the password (like in england if you are useing TrueCrypt on your PC) so they cant proof you are using Speed POIs :)

I've got bad news for you Toby- The Law in France is that everyone is GUILTY until proven innocent.doh

So if you block access with a password.......

The Gendarmes do not have any right to enter your car and look at your GPS or phone. Only the Douane can do that with special permission... and you don't mess with them feckers:nono:

The GPS speed cams are not illegal, though they are now called danger zones or some such nonsense.
The radar DETECTORS, ie. a device that actively finds a camera is illegal.
The Kyote type of units are legal and still being sold.

Hi-viz tabbards are not required to be worn OR carried by bikes over 125cc.

Some sort of reflective/hi-viz armband will be required from next Jan... unless we change their minds.

Rego/insurance/license - you are required to carry these.

It's so much fun living here:scooter:

Cheers,
John

John. Thanks for clarifying "from the horses mouth" if you don't object to the expression ;)

All things are possible.

The French moto fraternity had a spectacular protest success many years back by getting Autoroute tolls reduced from 100% of the car rate to about 55%.

My Autoroute toll protest continues.
At manned toll booths - I stop - switch off engine - remove visor - (and helmet, switch off i-pod and remove ear phones or ear plugs, if feeling particularly bloody minded and there are long queues) - smile and go through usual French introductory pleasantries - remove gloves - unzip jacket - unzip overtrouser top - find money in inner trouser pocket - carefully count it out - carefully check change and receipt - put remaining money, change and receipt in inner trouser pocket - zip up over trousers - zip up jacket - replace ear phones/plugs and helmet (if previously removed) - put on gloves - offer my thanks and farewells - adjust visor - start engine - carefully move forward.

It could be slightly faster at the automatic ticket issue machines on entrance - but here I often managed to thwart them by hugging the kerb and avoiding the under road vehicle sensors and have to press the Assistance button and wait for an English speaker - expressing total confusion as to why the machine will not issue a ticket/raise the barrier!
If raining it takes double the time because of wet cold gloves and hands :)

Hooting from behind of course prompts dismounting (and all that that entails) enquiring looks and searches as to what may be wrong - something loose on the bike? Flat tyre?

Unless I am in a hurry that is, otherwise I enjoy every minute of the long process as a break in the monotony before and after the toll point.

All in the vain hope that one day, if enough motos did the same they might 'get the p r i c k of us' low revenue sources and in the interests of traffic flow (and quicker cash collection) they let solos go free through a dedicated narrow gap.

Over 6 days around Bol d'Or weekend they used to exempt motos on all toll Autoroutes all over France by having a narrow special lane - now (last time there at that time) sadly only on the adjoining autoroutes and for a far shorter period. It was originally felt better for safety and noise reasons to encourage the huge numbers of motos from all over Europe to use Autoroutes instead of other roads through towns and villages - but no longer it seems.

Top Man:thumbup1:

+1

John

I'm not going to translate word for word, but these are the highlights from an interview with a motoring solicitor:

La r�glementation r�gissant les radars That's a linky to my source, decide for yourself if you believe it.

Un décret de la sécurité routière N°2012-3 publié au Journal Officiel du 4 janvier 2012 vient modifier l'article R413-15 du code de la route qui prohibait déjà les détecteurs de radar en interdisant dorénavant la possession, le transport et l'utilisation des « avertisseurs de radars ». Ce décret aggrave les sanctions visant l'usage ou la possession de tels appareils en faisant passer le nombre de retrait de points du permis de conduire de deux à 6. Indiquons également que la contravention pour une telle infraction est de 1500 euros d’amende.
De plus cette infraction peut entrainer des peines complémentaires telles : la suspension, pour une durée de trois ans au plus du permis de conduire, la confiscation du véhicule, lorsque le dispositif qui a servi ou était destiné à commettre l'infraction est placé, adapté ou appliqué sur un véhicule. Précisons enfin la confiscation du dispositif qui a servi ou était destiné à commettre l'infraction.

This is discussing the new law surrounding radar detectors, or more accurately a modification to the existing law. These continue to be illegal to be carried, but the endorsement increases from 2 penalty points to 6 and the fine will be EUR1500. It can also lead to additional punishment such as a 3 year ban, confiscation of the vehicle, or removal of equipment installed in a vehicle.

Les GPS et autres smartphones sont-ils illégaux ?
Réponse de Maître FARAJALLAH, Avocat au Barreau de Paris (Avocat Permis de Conduire - Cabinet de passy - Défense du Permis annulé, permis suspendu par un avocat automobile) :
Les GPS (Tom Tom et autres) et smartphones indiquant la présence de radars sont aussi concernés par ce nouveau texte : qu’ils soient dans la boîte à gants ou en évidence, ils sont devenus illégaux dès lors qu’ils permettent d’indiquer la présence de radars fixes ou mobiles. Il est donc nécessaire de les mettre à jour ou de désactiver la fonction permettant de connaître la présence des radars fixes ou mobiles sous peine de verbalisation.
Le Ministre de l’intérieur a annoncé qu’une « tolérance pédagogique » serait d’abord mise en place par les forces de l’ordre. La durée de cette tolérance n’a pas été fixée.

GPS such as TomTom or smartphones are also covered by the new law. It is illegal to carry these, either on display or in the glovebox, they are illegal if they indicate the presence of fixed or mobile speed cameras. It is necessary to carry out a software update, or deactivate the function allowing you to detect fixed or mobile speed cameras otherwise you will be fined. The will be a tolerance in place where police will educate, but the duration of this tolerance has not been set.


En pratique, la fouille dans le smartphone ou le GPS par les forces de l’ordre est-elle possible ?
Dans la pratique, les forces de l’ordre n’ont pas le droit de fouiller le téléphone ou le GPS à la recherche de l’infraction. Ce n’est que dans le cas d’une infraction flagrante ou après autorisation judiciaire, qu’une telle possibilité de fouille est possible.
Ainsi, en cas de contrôle routier, les forces de l’ordre ne pourront fouiller l’appareil et se lancer dans son apprentissage à la recherche du délit sans l’assentiment du conducteur.
En revanche, rouler avec une carte des radars imprimée n’a rien d’illégal …

In practice, police will not have the right to search your GPS or smartphone device to determine an infraction. Only in the case of a flagrant offence or following a judicial authorisation, may they be searched. The police cannot search the device without the consent of the driver. Paper maps printed with camera locations are not illegal.

So continually looking down at an unfolded map spread across ones lap is OK.
Keeping your eyes on the road but listening for a beep from the Sat Nav is not.

Once again proof it is all about money, not road safety.


Thanks for the translation.

The old detector works best
 

Just have to carry on relying on the saving grace --
The French hate Le Flick and almost all vehicles coming toward you that have passed a police radar speed system will be flashing their headlight(s) like crazy; there is no mistaking it!!
I am told that this is itself illegal, but that doesn't stop the French motorist.

I call it a speed "system" because Le Flick always seem to be there in large numbers - more than one vehicle, quite a few policemen, and women sometimes, standing about looking fairly bored but managing to pass the time of day.
Their radar detector is often pretty prominent also; a big thing on a tripod. Unfortunately, they are reputed to have a range of a few km so the oncoming drivers/riders will be flashing their lights for quite a long way along the highway.

Hope this helps, just a little. :thumbup1:

Edit; of course, this does not work at all on the motorways

But other motorists don't bother to flash to warn you of fixed camera sites - which is what is all most Sat Navs can tell you about.
(back to square one!)

Yep, that's what I had in mind with my edit to my last post but I couldn't type any more at the time jeiger

The French fixed sites are not too obvious compared with the UK day glow yellow markings and use of overhead gantries on major roads, but I wouldn't worry about them too much - just personal to me, but the speed limits on the French major roads are good enough for me to make progress. Besides, those fixed sites are not manned so no one is actually there to see a GPS in use.

Just to develop that radar comment of mine; Le Flic (spelling?) have a range of a few KM so they like to set up on those delightful very long straight stretches of road whereby the motorist is very likely not looking that far ahead and/or is not wearing their glasses at the time!!
Hence I take those stretches fairly cautiously when there are no vehicles coming in the opposite direction that could provide warning.
Also, in some cases/areas, they are reputed to favour setting up on Sunday mornings (when everyone is on their best behaviour going to church??).

I've been driving in France regularly for over 10 years now, and have been flashed by French fixed cameras many times in my UK registered car. Never had a ticket.

According to this website Caught speeding in France | Speed cameras in France it's only Luxembourg that are linked up with France in terms of sharing registration data. As with anything posted on a forum or a website, make up your own mind whether you believe it or not. All the fixed cameras I've seen are forward facing anyway so can't get motorbikes.

Plenty around with forward and rear facing units in the same box.
Round here, all fixed sites have a warning sign telling you that for your comfort and safety, there is a camera ahead and if it records bikes as well as cars/trucks.
They do not tell you how far distant it is.

There was supposed to be a campaign of sign removal but it has not happened... Hard to justify it as a safety device if you don't know its there and therefore don't stick below the limit.

GPS wise, if you are that bothered/paranoid, get the new, re-titled speed cam database:thumbup1:

From 1/7/2012 you will also have to carry your own breathalyser... mine might get broken under the seat of the bike:rolleyes2:

John

Only saw this recently, and also mentioned on Top Gear on Sunday. Will this apply to bikes as well? And can you use any old cheap and nasty ebay one?

And John can you just confirm the hi-viz thing? It does not apply to bikes bigger than 125cc? I am just getting confused now:confused:

It might be a good idea to wear a dayglow yellow overvest as car drivers have to carry in France now. They only cost 2-3 euros, and by wearing one now you will be signalling compliance with the law to the cops. so provided you dont rattle through a built up area with loud exhausts you stand a good chance of travelling unmolested.

do not crease the rice paper grasshopper

Personally if the law did say I have to ride with a HiViz vest I'd buy a bike friendly one with a zip at the front. I hate the idea of the cheapo ones with a little bit of velcro at the front, which will end up flapping in the breeze. But since the requirement seems to only be a small amount of reflective material and no HiViz at all then I'll just wear the compliant jacket I have. If it wasn't I'd maybe buy a suitable armband. (Only going from the link I put up previously for this info.)

:)

Not known but it will probably have to have a "NF" stamp on it somewhere... Like the old BSI kitemark

There is no requirement to carry OR wear a hi-viz anything on a motorcycle, except on your helmet, if you LIVE here . For next year they have lined up the use of a 50 square centimeter area band of reflex or hi-viz armband or band on the upper part of the body. Still not clarified on whether its hi-viz or reflex, or indeed if it has to be on the arm or body.

Its all cock.

Cheers,
John

No, no, no... There is no law to comply with! and you will just be adding to their twisted ideas by them saying "see, lots of bikers wear them, lets make them ALL wear them"

John

:thumbup1:

After all that - It's still a great place to ride.

Paul

The HUBB won't change their minds, it needs political lobbying of a serious nature.
So send some membership money here:
Motorcycle Action Group

Don't mess about, join up right now. Lobbying of any sort is excruciatingly expensive. (That's on purpose, so that hardly anyone can afford to do it).


Don't know if you know this Tony, but a MAG campaign followed exactly this method at the Dartford Crossing some years ago. Sometimes with quite a few bikes in line. It was quite fun.
We added the extra ingredients of dropping coins, only having a 20 pound note, dropping gloves, :oops2: and any other creative thing you could think of.

Most importantly, it worked, Dartford was made free. It also worked, if my memory is correct, on the Severn Bridge and a tunnel up north, maybe the Tyne.

But someone has to organise these things, or get the people organised, otherwise the machine of government continues unhindered. :tank:

You misunderstood me or I explained it badly. by wearing a reflective vest on a bike you are over complying, so it might make them think your satnav will be entirely legal. the new satnavs now seem to just state that the sites of the radar camera are now danger spots. so no real difference in practice :)

The latest software update on my 660 Zumo has removed all reference to camera locations...

The "we" is the French bikers, organised by the FFMC - [Fédération Française des Motards en Colère] as the laws pertain to France.

More demos are organised for this weekend. The 24th in the department towns - Limoges, Le Mans etc and on Sunday the 25th its the turn of Paris so if you fancy a ride this weekend, pick one from the list: Manifs moto des 24 et 25 mars 2012 : les lieux de rendez-vous - Moto Mag : actu, essais moto et scooter, occasions

Always good fun and make the demos in the UK look a bit tame:mchappy:

John

Yep, They know how to do these things properly over in France.

I don't remember what the year was, but a few MAG members went over there to support a Paris protest against a new insurance regime that would seriously disadvantage riders. Something to do with 'no-fault insurance' I think.

We were efficiently marshalled up at Bois de Vincennes, don't know how many thousands of us, then commenced a very slow circuit of the Peripherique. So slow, we stopped for about 30 minutes every now and again, until the whole Peripherique was blocked.

At one stoppage we abandoned the bikes on the roadway, walked about 100 mtrs away and all lay down on the tarmac.
We lay there long enough for all the helicopter news crews to get all the footage they wanted.
Imagine that happening in the North Circular or M25!

I think around the last stoppage, we were all handed a balloon each, told to blow it up, walk to the bridge just ahead and tie them to the parapet. Thousands of balloons for another spectacular photo set-piece.
And no cars moved anywhere.

Great times - maybe you remember the year?

Can't do 25th March, am doing this: http://www.wasp.bwf-ivv.org.uk/Stumble_poster_2012.pdf

Sleepy:

Could you elaborate on that? After applying this software update, did the Zumo no longer provide you with any notification whatsoever of 'proximity alerts' that were in the proximity database, or did it simply "beat around the bush" in how it provided notification, for example, by saying 'Danger spot ahead' or 'Pay particular attention ahead', rather than saying '50 km/h speed camera ahead'?

Michael

John's said it all. I would just add that a breath alyser will be compulsory in (on) ALL motorised vehicles from (I think) June this year. You need to carry 1 with you or on the vehicle. The police / gendarmes will spot check this item.
However, they cannot oblige you to use it, if you only have one, obliging you to use it would oblige you to break the law which they cannot do.

Don't buy a uk breathalyser test cos the french will insist the test is stamped NF, & calibrated to the french limit which is 0,50g / litre air (is the uk still 0,80g?) they cost about 1€50 a peice in a pharmacy.

triangle & first aid kit & bulb kit & his vis etc are NOT obligatory on bikes (yet)

ride safe

MooN

oh yeah, I have just seen an article here from a lawyer stating that the police / gendarmerie have absolutely no right to enter your vehicle or manipulate yoyr gps or telephone or remove them from the vehicle, your car is considered private property & they need a "commission rogatoire" from a judge to enter private property (or an invitation from the owner...). The Douanes (customs) have the right to do just about whatever they please, don't mess about with them & don't EVER lie to them, it just ain't worth it.

(I spent 2 hours at 2 am on the side of the A26 having my company van stripped out by them about 8 months ago & the pressure they put on you to admit you've been smoking dope or have done so in the past is enormous & at that time in the morning VERY intimidating!)

Hi Michael, the update removed all reference to proximity alerts from the database..., so no notification at all about 'Safety Cameras'.
Which I didn't mind as I found the 'bonging sound annoying' (though I did turn it off).

"Don't buy a uk breathalyser test cos the french will insist the test is stamped NF, & calibrated to the french limit which is 0,50g / litre air (is the uk still 0,80g?) they cost about 1€50 a peice in a pharmacy."

Are the 'NF' stamped item available in all Pharmacies? I've never felt the need buy one before! I've not drunk alcohol for 11 Years now, so it could be an interesting conversation with the Frech Police if stopped!

Just as an aside, I read recently (don't know how true) that the French are / might be having to display 20% LARGER number plates - although it won't apply to non residents, I don't think.

Expensive more like:innocent:

Only applies to new registrations from... I forget the date... . Will not affect existing plates or foreign regos.
The new plate still wont be as big as the UK one:clap:
Strange to say the in Germany, you can now have a smaller plate on your bike.

The breathalysers can be bought at supermarkets here, Super-U for instance, for about a Euro 50. They will have an NF rating.
You also need TWO! to be legal.
DON'T buy the ones the AA/RAC will try and flog you in Dover/Folkstone... Bound to be expensive.

Cheers,
John

gps speed warnings illegal in France
 

I live in France, and it is certainly illegal to carry a gps with speed camera functions. I have not immobilised my Zumo yet, as I don't see how they can catch you. The fine has gone up to E1500, with 6 points. I haven't seen any breathalysers for sale here yet, a friend bought one at Halfords UK for about £60 which is pricy, but can be used again and again.

What's it for?
 

What is the underlying logic to this concept of carrying a breathalyser with you, in any type of vehicle in France?
Is it so that you can breathalyse yourself if you are not sure if you have had too much to drink, or is the idea that the police will use your breathalyser kit if and when they pull you over?

The police would certainly use their own certified and more accurate breathalyser system for a court case. I doubt that they could prosecute you using your own equipment, which for all they know, you could have tampered with.

The only logical use I can think of having a portable alcohol device is that when you have a drink, you can check if you are still under the limit. If so, you can have a 'top up' drink until you reach the driving alcohol limit jeiger.

i.e. there is no sensible logic in this legislation. It is more likely to cause harm than good by encouraging drivers to 'top up' before driving. That has always been the argument against them in the UK.

But of course it's an election year for Sarkozy so all sorts of weird and wonderful legislation seems to be being rushed through to bolster support from minority ethnic and pressure groups.

Grey Beard

available in all pharmacies for cost of 1 to 2 € each (madame MooN works in a pharmacie & brought 4 home for 3€) also available, at least for a while in supermarkets, petrol stations, diy stores, news agents, garages etc etc etc.

went straight through France over the last 4 days, no grief from the Rozzers!

The fine is like 1,000 euros so I did expect to be pulled and challenged straight off the ferry :-)

Using a Zumo with the camera locations switched off as per the Garmin website, no problems for me and Bikey George.

I bought a 'NF' kit from Halfords - one off use, £4.95. Not as cheap as in France, maybe, but I don't need to go searching straight off the Ferry, either!

Have also just joined MAG. As well as the above (and other bizarre bits of legislation), I'm particularly irked about the potential 'no tampering' rule that would see most (all?) non-OE parts made illegal, you needing to get 'permission' from the Government to have them on your bike!

There's an article at the start of this month's 'Bike' magazine detailing some of the issues (although they've been covered widely elsewhere, too).

If this legislation goes through, it could mean SERIOUS financial trouble for those selling aftermarket gear. Not going to be well received here!

Just what we all need with the economy the way it is . . . . .

I love biking in France, and the French people (well, most anyway - but I feel the same about the English!doh) I don't want to have to circumvent the whole country just to avoid silly, ill-conceived laws that don't really benefit anyone.

Breathalysers
 

Probably so that if they pull you and you are over the limit they can double fine you .. 1. for being over the limit and .. 2. carrying but not using your kit before driving/riding. beer jeiger bier :oops2: :ban:

But of course if you test yourself after lunch, then again after a small glass with dinner, you would have to still have a 3rd as a spare as its illegal to not carry one, which on a bike at least, for a multiday trip, either you need a trailer for all the testers, go teatotal, or perhaps use common sense doh

Breathalysers
 

Or you could buy a GoldWing/Trailer combo and carry lots of them!!! :funmeteryes:
I rode Wings for 20 years .... not a dig!!! Harleys on the other hand ... no, stop it!!! :scooter:

This breathalyser situation seems a daft paradox -unless I am missing something.
I assume by the prices quoted these are a single use device.

The puropse of the Legal requirement to carry a breathalyser is presumably to use if you have had a drink to see if it is OK to continue driving/riding.

If, on testing yourself with the legally required one brethalyser, you are -
- over the limit you do not drive/ride. All well and good.
- under the limit you do not drive/ride. Because you no longer have an unused breathalyser.

Either way you cannot drive/ride. Great idea... Well done France!

The number 'vingt deux' comes to mind.

Yes, of course, election year - would never happen in the UK of course; buying votes that is!!

So, does this legislation actually require a rider/driver to self-test before inserting keys into the ignition?


But, does the legislation require the single one that is carried, in accordance with the law, to be un-used?
Perhaps, a defence in law, would be "well yes I am carrying one and I tested myself just before you came along, officer".

You are (will be), required to have TWO.
If you use one you still have one until you can get to the supermarket to buy more. They sell them in packets of 2 so then you will have three:D

I'm going to keep mine under the saddle. They wont be any good because they will get broken:innocent: but I will have complied. The only way they will know they are broken is if they force me to use one, which of course they cannot. So, as TonyP says, 22 comes to mind.

I don't ever drink when out on the bike except maybe a Panache so I care not a jotbier

John

Breathalysers
 

Easiest solution ... All joking aside, don't drink and ride/drive (it's stupid anyway), spend 3 euro at the chemist for the kits, keep the old bill happy ,, or not :rofl:. because you aren;t over the limit and you have your testers!! Simples :thumbup:
If only UK M.O.T. and road tax was as easy to get around!!! I foresee trouble ahead ... :mchappy: :eek3:

You can also get digital testers, with packs of new mouthpieces for each new test for about £20 if you really wanted to test before riding, and then a newly recalibrated bit for 6 monthly rejigging.

I didn't mean I drink and ride in my last post, or suggest anyone should of course!

:)