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-   -   DIY tubeless rims (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/equipping-bike-whats-best-gear/diy-tubeless-rims-37278)

Chris Scott 21 Aug 2008 14:23

DIY tubeless rims
 
Anyone tried making a spoked rim tubeless by gluing/sealing all around the spoke nipples inside with some cunning sealant like "Liquid Vinyl" (see link below).
What grams you add in glue you more than save in inner tube. A regular rim won't have the bead-seating inner lip of course but that's only a safety thing I think and would make mounting easier anyway. You'll loose spoke tensioning ability but how often do you do that?

I wonder if the flex of a regular spoked rim (or any other number of reasons!) make this a dumb idea. Not much to be lost trying though. IMO tubeless is the way to go - if it all goes wrong you can always bung in a tube.

And what's the difference between the same tyre in tubed and tubeless versions? Is the bead smoother/different?

Ch

tubeless wire wheels? - Kawasaki Motorcycle Forums

AliBaba 21 Aug 2008 14:39

Yes tubeless is the way to go, butt hen you have to buy a Boxer.... :-)

Check bottom of the page: WoodysWheelWorks.com

beddhist 21 Aug 2008 23:49

Maybe ok on the road, but if you deflate the tyres for dirt or sand riding you risk the tyre coming off the rim and instantly deflating. The hump may be important.

If you hit a pothole at speed, is there a danger of the tyre suddenly deflating?

BMW make tubeless spoked wheels and Honda did (some XL600 model).

Chris Scott 22 Aug 2008 08:23

The BMW and old XLM spoked tubeless rims all avoided having the spokes go into the well of the rim to enable spoke tensioning. I dont know if Excel or someone make rims like this.

Re the hump, I remember a tubed Tenere I had in the late 80s whose Tagasako? rims for some reason had that bead-locating hump which made changing tyres a pain. I set it up on a crate without a tyre, put it in gear and ground it off.

I suppose a stiff tyre like a Desert run tubeless would stay on a humpless rim better than some, but the Tenere above suggests spoked rims did come with a hump, maybe they still do? Even then, if you visualise non-racing cornering forces on a low psi tyre in sand it does not seem too bad.

Ch

Xander 22 Aug 2008 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Scott (Post 203387)
The BMW and old XLM spoked tubeless rims all avoided having the spokes go into the well of the rim to enable spoke tensioning. I dont know if Excel or someone make rims like this.

Re the hump, I remember a tubed Tenere I had in the late 80s whose Tagasako? rims for some reason had that bead-locating hump which made changing tyres a pain. I set it up on a crate without a tyre, put it in gear and ground it off.

I suppose a stiff tyre like a Desert run tubeless would stay on a humpless rim better than some, but the Tenere above suggests spoked rims did come with a hump, maybe they still do? Even then, if you visualise non-racing cornering forces on a low psi tyre in sand it does not seem too bad.

Ch

I found this recently. and thought that it is a great idea but no where can i find speed or weight ratings...

Nuetech Tubliss Core
any one willing to test pilot them..

Chris Scott 22 Aug 2008 10:36

Well spotted Xander, a small, chunky pushbike-sized tube to seal the tyre bead to bead, not the rim so you keep spoke tension ability.

I think I've seen similar on giant-tyred 4WDs run in Iceland for extremely low pressure (more for rim retention as they are tubeless already of course). I've also used pushbike tubes in a slightly similar way to seal and so mount tubeless 4WD tyres.

Looks like Tubliss is aimed at dirt bikes: light and relatively slow but a lot of impact flex going on - plus a van nearby. Not the same as a GS12 laden with all the Touratech fruit. Avoids the whole road-use legal issue and who can blame them, but AFAIK speed ratings are tyre related(flex + friction = heat = high wear/failure).
No friction with the red liner (or barely any compared to a full contact tube) and even less heat with Slime-like sealant, just regular tyre flex. Run a good tyre with the appropriate rating for your bike + right pressure for the load/terrain as you would normally.

I'll give them a try - all you got to do is take tubes with until you have faith in it.

Ch

Added later:

Just found this on Tubliss tire product - ADVrider

Tubliss officially is not recommending them for highway use. One reason is that they have not been tested to any standards for highway use and another reason is that if the system were to fail while riding at highway speed the tire goes flat immediately. No slow leaks, just boom and it's gone. Now having said all of that they have some customers that are using the system on the street and have had no problems as of yet. Tubliss and Brap Offroad both are selling this system for off road use only at this time. What it gets used for is out of our control.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to email me back or call me at 717-285-7873.
Thanks and have a great day.

Marty Graver
BRAP! Offroad

So, as you guys probably already know, these are for off-road, slower speed only.


I think when he says failing he means the red core bit - not a regular tyre tread puncture where a flat would occur in the normal tubeless fashion (ie: slower than tubes). If anything the red rim lock would make the deflation safer as it would hold the tyre on the rim. So as I understand it, as long as the red tube doesn't fail (it's v thick and far from the tyre tread most of the time) it's business as usual.

Xander 22 Aug 2008 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Scott (Post 203399)
Well spotted Xander, a..snip..

Just found this on Tubliss tire product - ADVrider

Tubliss officially is not recommending them for highway use. One reason is that they have not been tested to any standards for highway use and another reason is that if the system were to fail while riding at highway speed the tire goes flat immediately. No slow leaks, just boom and it's gone. Now having said all of that they have some customers that are using the system on the street and have had no problems as of yet. Tubliss and Brap Offroad both are selling this system for off road use only at this time. What it gets used for is out of our control.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to email me back or call me at 717-285-7873.
Thanks and have a great day.

Marty Graver
BRAP! Offroad

So, as you guys probably already know, these are for off-road, slower speed only.


I think when he says failing he means the red core bit - not a regular tyre tread puncture where a flat would occur in the normal tubeless fashion (ie: slower than tubes). If anything the red rim lock would make the deflation safer as it would hold the tyre on the rim. So as I understand it, as long as the red tube doesn't fail (it's v thick and far from the tyre tread most of the time) it's business as usual.

Thanks.. I been thinking about them for a few weeks .. and feel really stupid for not searching ADV rider.. :confused1: (being a member and all)

Chris I think you may be right.. I use TKC80 on my AT (which are labelled as tubeless anyway so a normal "nail in the tread" will go down at a normal rate). So with the rim locks and Red tube it should hold, better then I am running now (no rim locks, I know I know.. just have not got a round to fitting them yet) ... I was worried about heat (from weight/speed) . but your point is 100% correct.. I wonder what the failure rate of the red-tube is? I also wonder can you "slime" them (yes you will be upping the Heat but could lower the risk of catastrophic failure). Chris if you are going to give them a try I will be watching with great interest..please keep us up todate...

Edit: B**ger i just realised the dont do a 17" hmmmmm As i am changing my rims later this year anyway.. maybe i could go up to 18"

Chris Scott 22 Aug 2008 13:18

I also wonder can you "slime" them (yes you will be upping the Heat but could lower the risk of catastrophic failure).

Actually I believe Slime and the like reduce heat or at least dissipate it better.
Slimed my car the other month after years of thinking about it. Not infallible for punctures but then you just ram a gluey plug in and pump up which is the whole point of tubeless for me. FWIW gluey plugs also can fail I found: then you take the tyre off and go to the menders for an inner patch. And it seems you can ride flat OK on tubliss but the tyre will get very very hot even at slow speeds. Tried this on an XT in Mali once with not choice and it wrecked the tyre in 20km.

..please keep us up todate...

Will do. Contacted the UK distribs and have a trip coming up on an 18/21 bike running new TKCs. Shame they're not in 17 - maybe it's a too obvious road bike size? Anyway it's same/cheaper and a better solution than those tyre balls and more flexible than mousses, IMO

Ch

btw, will be trying one these too: probably instant landfill but worth a tenner to try with a bikepump as back up.
Airman Compact Air Compressor - Screwfix.com, Where the Trade Buys

Threewheelbonnie 22 Aug 2008 13:57

I don't think I like the DIY approach. Maybe it's the engineer in me but sealing air really needs the right surfaces and the right materials used in the right way. I've known enough things leak when the seals were designed to known criterea to go try the "slap enough paint on" approach. BMW must have looked at semi-liquid sealants, O-rings, diaphragms and a host of other ways to seal the tyre and eventually went for the idea of separating the mechanical and pneumatic. This is good engineering as it avoids dynamic seals (your spokes and rim flex so the seal must too) which will always leak even if you go for something like a diaphragm never mind semi-liquid stuff. For a good dynamic seal you need a diaphragm to make the seal effectively static or an O-ring type seal with the right compression throughout the movement range. Liquids have no compression and to me would leak as soon as the spokes flexed. How much is the big question.

Tyre repair gloop (basically water with suspended silicone blobs) is the equivalent of emptying the teapot down the sink. You'll think you blocked the plug hole, but come back in a few hours.....In a tyre repair the glue holds the plug (mechanical) while the rubber in compression does the sealing, hence it's a good seal.

I won't be doing this, but if you really do want to be the first (and lacking a tyre engineer to tell me otherwise), the pneumatic guy suggests keeping the rim tape. A least this will slow the flow rate if the silicone does open a leak path and will keep the seal on the spokes in compression and as static as possible.

Andy

Xander 22 Aug 2008 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Scott (Post 203423)
Ch

btw, will be trying one these too: probably instant landfill but worth a tenner to try with a bikepump as back up.
Airman Compact Air Compressor - Screwfix.com, Where the Trade Buys

Dont waste your ££ ..I had two they replace the first one that never worked and the second over heated doing a fit ball (10psi)...

Chris Scott 22 Aug 2008 14:38

BMW must have looked at semi-liquid sealants, O-rings, diaphragms and a host of other ways to seal

I must say fixing the spokes outside the rim seems the obvious and easy way round it - or cast wheels of course (which I read somewhere are lighter on the t/l GS650 compared to the tubed 800 - could be wrong).

Lashings of B&Q silicon sealant under the rim tape sounds a good and reverseable bodge (as the best bodges are) but I wonder if there is some alloy corrosion (the vinegary smell) or outdoor temps ageing element in the silicon? Maybe some gasket compound would be better but whatever, it would be prone to lift off with centrifugal forces at speed unless the rim tape was a giant hose clip.

Anyway, Tubliss seemed to have engineered a neat solution. With that the centrifugal (which I didn't consider before) is broadly with you.

Thanks for the SP on the Airman pump - landfill it is then. Still Screwfix sounds like a good place for a wander and it's right next to Ikea for the Mrs - everyone wins!

Ch

Dessertstrom 22 Aug 2008 14:45

Threewheelbonnie,
I'm with you on this, I would rather put my trust in the tyre companies than someone who has tried a bodge and got away with it. OK if you are in the middle of nowhere and you have to find a fix somehow and then get the correct repair done as soon as you can.
I know there are those that will say that they have been using this or that for ages on the road but you don't get any test data to say what the limits are and what kind of bikes that are used.
Cheers
Ian:thumbup1:

backofbeyond 22 Aug 2008 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xander (Post 203429)
Dont waste your ££ ..I had two they replace the first one that never worked and the second over heated doing a fit ball (10psi)...

I bought something very similar from Woolies this time last year, stripped the casing off to reduce the size and used it loads of times (wife's car has "leaky" tyre) until it vanished a couple of months back. Noticed the other day that Woolies has them again for £6.99. If I buy one the original will turn up the next day!

Chris Scott 22 Aug 2008 21:09

Good on you M-Dog. Interesting to hear someone has tried it, can actually recommend a product and that the idea has been around for ages.

Whip that tube out and take it round the block pronto, what are you waiting for?!

the spokes should not move, therefore may not ever need adjustment again. (theoretically...

I think it could be theoretically because it assumes that spoke loosening only happens at the now sealed up nipple. I have a feeling a spoke can simply 'stretch' along its entire length. Dont they normally break at the hub end? i cant remember.

Not sure Woody's is still doing it is he? See: WoodysWheelWorks.com - under KTM 950 Wheels
He mentions the complexities of sealant and centrifugal force which occurred to me earlier.

I would rather put my trust in the tyre companies than someone who has tried a bodge and got away with it.

Ian, we're not talking about messing around with trusted tyres but sealing wheel rims. The tyre is not affected except that it now runs cooler and deflates more slowly on puncture. In the old days what has come to be known as 'adventure motorcycling' was all about what I call 'bodging' - aka experimentation.
Of course a proper tubeless rim would be best to save all this messing about with 3M gloop, but on the sort of bikes I like they are rare at present. I was sceptical about tubeless on bikes for overlanding but am now converted enough to give it a try. As we all know punctures are the most common breakdown we'll experience on the road. Decent proven TL tyres like TKC80s exist so IMO it's time to make spoked rims catch up with 3M or Tubliss.

Ch

hook 22 Aug 2008 23:47

Woody's
 
Hey guys, I am pleased to report Woody's is still sealing rims here in Denver. I just got my wheels back- new rims, spokes, nipples- they look amazing. Problem is, Woody explained they are only sealing the 19" wheel, not the 21." Woody gave me a tour of the new shop. To seal the rear wheel they use a type of silicone that takes some 48 hours to set. They prefer not to seal the front rim as they had several failures in the past. They are currently working on an ironclad solution for the 21'' rim. Woody advises carrying a tube in case the sealing fails, though he says they have the rear wheel dialed in these days. Woody is semi-retired now and his Son Chris is stepping in. They are both terrific fellows and their product is fantastic. Patrick, if you get that sealant thing worked out I imagine you could make quite a bundle on the side sealing West Coast rims! I had 4 punctures over the last 50,000 miles- the rear tire EVERY time. I look forward to plugging instead of levering. Now watch, the next 4 punctures will surely be the FRONT- still tubed- tire! H.


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