HI Ted, thanks very much for the support and views I really do want to produce a high quality, strong and secure overland system Made in England - with the versatility to be adapted at manufacturing point to customer requirements, not aimed at the dressing up market market they will always opt for alloy I think, Its really quite hard putting together a product like this - as I am finding out, sourcing and testing materials, design, costing out of time / materials etc then the suppliers want to deal in large quantities to get the prices down. All then has to be put together to have some future in it that I can actually make some sort of living in the future from it . Got to be honest Its not looking too good as a viable business at the moment as I can not get the costing down enough to make the end product viable. If I was just making a few sets for one off's it would be quite simple but to try and turn out enough to make a profit looks very very foggy indeed. I am however still hopeful of getting something together and seeing how it goes - but we will see how many hills there are to climb after I reach the top of this one - seems Ive lost my way in the fog at the moment and the snow seems damn deep for the rest of the climb !.:frown:

Best regards Jake.

I admire your effort but also am not optimistic for a high-end, niche product at a reasonable price...if it were easy, I think someone would have done it already. Good luck and keep us posted!

Jake, rather than trying to 'go big' straight away, it may pay to produce a quality product in low volumes & let the market take it from there, I believe that there is an opening in the (European*) market for a product like this - just how big it is who knows......

Phil

* The Australian/US markets already have their own versions of this sort of thing.

Good luck anyway

Your probably just better off making a few rough prototypes. Try to get some kind of patent and then sell the design for a % (Dragons Den type of thing)...

It doesnt have to be that difficult... Use materials already tried and tested on the market. You dont need NASA stuff for travelling..

Leather, Cordura etc... I think what will make yours great as it will be designed just for Overland bikes, not having to accomodate sports bikes, street bikes and not have to look really pretty so catalogues etc.

Start off with a set of Ortlieb or Andystrapz bags and look to improve rather them rather than totally redesign. Use other companies leg work in the base product.

Rivit the weak points, change the zips, sew on extras, introduce heat proof sections on it and especially try and get a custom fitted protective mesh around it.

How far you get depends on your commitment. Doesnt have to cost the earth and if you get a few decent prototypes, you could sell them to cover the initial costs for "round 2".

As for costing...

Set of good bags are £150-£200. 2x pacsafes add £120 to this.. So if can get them made for under £300 then you're already competetive !!

Hi Ted, shandydrinker and Motorieter, I think we are all thinking along the same lines here and the ideas and suggestions you are making are exactly along the lines I was initially wanting and am trying to put together. I hope to pull it off but there are quite a lot of hidden costs that you start to find out about when you start putting them together - this has a knock on effect, I also need to sink a good few bob into this once I start - still I will in any case be making the prototypes soon in the new year and see how they work out. All the ideas are coming together fairly well but making them work in a manufacturing process is like I say similar to wading through deep snow in the fog - uphill - so onwards and upwards - hope there is a pub at the top.

Pigford, that was my sense of humour! :eek3:

Geoff

If you can a SS netting on the top bottom out side and frunt and back and heat resistance inner side will go a long way, a kevlar shell for rips and rubbing on long trips. A inner liner that is waterproof or a waterproof inner bag.

Do your self a favor and do not go cheap you can not out compete the cheap bags that are out now. Go better not cheaper. You can remake the soft bag, a full remake not just a rebuild, copping some bag you have now. Longer, flatter, down low, hard points, straps that are held down not flapping in the wind, straps and velcro that look like there made to hold up not off some kids school bag. Make a bag that dose not just stand out but stands alone. For Ideas look at militay bags and knoe there made for walking speed go tuffer.

After that a top bag and some small bags to hold all you junk in your bags.

Just to let people know the score on the panniers following the survey, i have made the decision to start making the panniers and have researched an awful lot of materials and various designs. The panniers are specific design for the overland/ adventure market I have further been discussing ideas with a very well know and respected Adventure / Overland traveller and together we have come up with several design and size solutions. The panniers will be roll top design ,38 lts each side, built in security to lock the panniers closed and also to lock them to the bike. (I am also looking at the viability of fixings on the bag to allow pacsafe SB mesh bags to be fitted and supported on the bags in a semi permanent fitting system ( but easily unclipped and removed when needed) -this still needs a bit more work. The Materials used are top quality specification and not like any other pannier sytem I have seen. there is provision for two 1 ltr bottles as well as 2 camelback water carrier pouch, heat proof backs with a rubberised kevlar material which is highly resistant to abrasion, water, oil etc and very hard wearing, multi layered waterproof build quality. Fixings and fittings will be in metal not plastic.They will also be versatile in as much each pannier can be used as a rucksack / or shoulder bag - as well as having a detachable section that can be used as a lightweight day backpack for day out riding away from campsite. I am hoping to have prototypes finished in the next month and after testing. The bags would be best suited to be used with a standard rack which allows the panniers to be held in the best position as well as away from wheel or exhaust contact. Prices are to be worked out but combination of very high quality materials and fittings along with the fact that they are made here in England not in a five pound a day sweatshop in the third world dictates the prices which will be at the higher end of the soft luggage price range but still considerably less than any hard luggage system. Once they are ready I will be advertising them through This site along with a well known overland team site. I will keep everyone updated when progress past the prototype has gone and I am able to cost out the actual production time.

I've bought wire products from this company Woven Slings,woven wire rope slings
They seem to be able to do miraculous things with ss wire. Maybe they could sort you out with security mesh.

Thanks for the link to the wire company I will speak to them in the next day or so. However so far with most companies I have found that for custom made or small production runs of things the price becomes very high or there is no interest at all in. I will see what they say thanks very much.

i can testify that woven kevlar is a bitch to cut with a knife or scissors, but it would probably end up costing more than putting a pacsafe type mesh between two of the layers.

Hi Dave, I have found its almost not possible to make the bags with a material that can not be cut, i have used a kevlar based product in the bags build for protection from abrasion and heat (the kevlar is resistant to burning or melting to 160 degreesC). But I have decided to go down the road of adding a security wire to lock the bags shut and to lock the bags to the bike. I feel this is adequate as the way the bag is designed it will stop pilfering, However I have made the bags so that the size is compatible with a Pacsafe product and will offer as an option (extra cost) a pacsafe bag set of fittings which will mean that a pacsafe net can be fitted and secured to the bag in such a way that the back of the pacsafe net will not rub on bodywork and the net will be secured to the main pannier so it can be left in situ and still allow access to the bag. I am still developing this at the moment but it will be available when I release the bags for sale.

one further question for everyone - on the rear of the bags will be two bottle carriers, what would be the preferred option as a standard fit ?
2 x 1 lt bottle carriers,Or larger bottle carriers or 2 x 2ltr plastic jerry can holders or a mix of one of each on each bag.
The bags have built in (1) storage pouch per bag on the front edge for an ortlieb 2 litre water bag so that gives 4 litres water capacity-before adding the bottles on the back.

1 X 2l plastic can (black square type) 1 X 1l round bottle (MSR size) i'm in, will be glad to get rid of these ali boxes.
Are you only doing one size? 38l is way to big for me, would be lokking for more like 25l
Pete

Hi Pete I hope to develop a smaller bag also to use on smaller bikes or as tank panniers but this is not a priority as there are plenty of options available from the likes of Ortlieb and various other companies.