Panama to Columbia (overland?)
 

(I'm planning a pan-am-ish trip in the coming future and was lead along the lines of the following)

My cursory search on here reveals it's not been brought up before.

Surely not!?!

So after a rapid glance on google maps, I'm assured that there is some land mass between Panama and Columbia.

So my question (not to the naysayers): aside from people with guns, lack of road, tropical illnesses, poisonous fauna and dangerous creatures, what's stopping me from giving it a go?

It must have been done, once or twice! Anyone know who has? Any tips or suggestions (I should ignore) if that person is reading?

There has been a couple to my knowledge, and at least one book written on the subject.
A while ago I remember reading a similar thread (it may have been on the HUBB, Advrider or lonely planet thorn tree, cannot remember) by a person similar to yourself, surmising that surely the Darien could be traversed given it had been done before.

The response was huge and detailed in explanation as to why such an attempt by most mortals on this planet would likely result in death.

While not wanting to be a naysayer (so your question, if not to naysayers was to those believing it is possible? you might get limited responses if that is the case) everything I have read from experienced overlanders, locals, military etc was that the physical barriers presented by the darien gap in addition to the hazards faced by bandits, pirates, rebel groups, indigenous groups and the military themselves would likely result in the death of any person who attempted to cross it.
There is a reason virtually nobody attempts this and boats and planes make a killing transporting people around it.

It is indeed possible. But why?

There is a lot of info on the darien gap and the dangers if you do a decent search. Including the disappearance of more than a few foolish gringos who entered never to be seen again. So while not wanting to be a naysayer its obvious at this point you appear not have done the required research to even surmise that this would be a good idea.
Funnily enough in that thread I mentioned above the OP seemed even more encouraged to do it the more he learnt of the dangers. Perhaps the challenge attracts only a certain type of person(with a death wish?)

If thats you, just do your research. Just my 2 cents.

good luck!

Since you don't want naysayers, I'll just say that yes, you should give it a try. Nothing's stopping you. As you say, a few others have made it, and there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't join their ranks....aside from those you listed (with a few insignificant additions, like the fact that it's forbidden by the governments involved, takes a significant amount of time and effort, and costs rather a lot of money).

You don't say whether you're on foot or traveling with a vehicle. That might matter.

Post here about your experiences once you're done.

Mark

Hey guys, cheers for your feedback, given that I didn't even know it is called the Darien gap, goes to show how little I knew on the subject. Always appreciate a little education. :)

I do wonder at times with certain things... I mean with overlanding in particular, tell everyday Joe you're going to ride an entire continent on a dirt bike and they'll say "you'll never make it"... tell them you'll cross the world on a dirt bike they'll raise their hands to the sky laughing and tell you "stop being stupid!"

I find in similar circumstances even among overlanders, you tell them you're going to give XYZ stretch of desert/forest/trail a go, and some will say "That's mad don't do it!" [followed by a list of their reasons why they're not going to run the risk] meanwhile they stay in their very comfortable comfort zone and stay on the tar.

It's interesting. I'm by no means even ready to leave for the Americas yet, but I would be interested in knowing about the Darien. If you say it's forbidden by the governments involved, then I'll take that on the chin and follow the band wagon. However, if it were legal and achievable, I'd look into it. :)

Neil
I´ve just left Colombia, and now in Panama (by plane!). I was hoping that the ferry would be up and running by now - but no such luck.

As part of your research you might like to take a look at Nick´s website. He rides places others strain to reach - and he had an interesting(!) encounter in Colombia. Not the Darien, but perhaps an example of what can happen when you stray too much from the usual travellers´ routes. His stuff is well worth the read anyway, and he has nice pics!

Blog - Tales from the Saddle - Solo Motorcycle Tour Around the World on a Yamaha YBR 125 and Honda XR125

There is a thread under ride tales covering my travels (plus link below)
Hope that helps
Pat

I'm no expert, but I think there could be reason(s), why the Interamericana has never been built between Panama and Colombia? But like you said, you'll probably need to do more research on the subject, before you decide. It certainly is "off the beaten track", and personally I'd skip it, as I think there are more tempting and less risky adventures to be found.

Helge Pedersen crossed it (if I'm right, the 1st to do it). Google his name to find more info. So it's doable.

I'll add a short (or long) story: I know as well an Spaniard who made it in the late 70s by foot (which to me looks easier), I don't know how much it has changed. He went with a Quebecois and got a couple of indian guides in Panama. Half way, the guides desisted, they said "no way, this is mad". They kept on machete at hand. Run out of water, desperate left the backpacks, kept going and after long hours walking found their backpacks again. They had made a circle! Imagine the desperation (don't tell me about compass and navigation, I don't know how your brains works in that situation). The had to drink the water from a source (but no great katadyn as now), kept on and were found by indians (loincloths, blowguns, etc) who took them and told them the way. Arrived to the 1st village in Colombia, went to the church and met the priest, another Spaniard, who said "you don't need a bed, guy, you need a hospital, you look too bad!". He got a very bad dysenteria and almost died, spent a month in hospital and finally recovered. I asked him: "Carlos, would you repeat it?" He answered "NO WAY, almost died, such a tension the Quebecois and I never talked again, it was not really accomplishment". I can assure you he's a tough guy and he says he was still lucky not to get a mortal malaria (I heard of a fatal case when I was travelling in Panama).

If I were brave enough to try something like that (and I'm not), I'd choose to go on a monkey bike, so that you can more easily put it no a canoe and the like. No joking.

I searched a bit and there is an old thread about it and low tide and so, although the language is sometimes offensive: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...rien-gap-13294

Happy travels and please take a well pondered decision,

Esteban

Esteban, creo.... (y estoy suponiendo), que sabiendo algo de español tiene que ayudar un poco. Yo personalmente soy de doble nacionalidad y me manejo bastante bien en los dos idiomas. Me gustaría conocer aquel tipo quien lo hizo en pie, de donde es?

In English,

I was saying that I believe knowing the native language/culture would help a lot.


Anyhow, I don't propose riding the monorail in low tide don't worry; the hovercraft will do just fine.

I did read on wikipedia that...
Which is encouraging, that was only last year! I skimmed my eyes over the 17 armed soldiers bit, it didn't seem too encouraging on my pursuit of doing it in 2 days.

Indeed, you do speak/write absolutely perfect Spanish. But you'll still probably be a gringo, even me I was sometimes a gringo and I look very Spanish!

I don't want to discourage you (you meant it in your post), since probably everyone did so with Helge at the time. I just wanted to provide info for a solidly based decision.

It's a long story, to cut short: the guy is Spanish, after lived long yearsin the jungle in Peru and later worked in the UN and recently retired. He's humble and doesn't tell about it, his wife started the topic. Then I dug on it and he told me the details.

I'm no expert, so I cannot tell you, I've never done anything close to that. I mainly go to the supermarket after work, don't cross jungles machete at hand, so I cannot provide any advice.

If you are Mike Horn, who crossed by foot the whole Amazon jungles following the Equator, no worries, for sure (btw, I strongly recommend his book Latitude ZERO, not sure if it is translated). Or this guy (odyssey home page, what an awesome trip). But risks are something to consider twice before you embark on that; I dare that the bike would be more a burden.

PS: Didn't mean the low tide regarding you, it was just "interesting" to read.

It's a swamp...
 

Hehe, there is a mountain of information on the Darien on the net, so I'd say you haven't began researching yet!!

I met a guy who documented a trip with 4 germans who made rafts and used their bikes to propel them down the rivers to Colombia...they overheated due to the engine working the same but having no wind to cool it. Later some others made another raft and floated the amazon, successfully by setting up a water pump to cool the engine.

So good luck and post info on what you decide!


Here is a yahoo answer why there is no road:

The Darien Gap as someone mentioned is the existing gap in the Pan-American Highway. At the time the road was being built it was unfeasible to build as the jungle and the terrain were to harsh to build and the gap was deemed to expensive.

Later the presence of guerrilla groups around the Panama - Colombia border has made this difficult for Panama to accept, as they believe it will allow Colombian Guerrillas to do more frequent incursions in Panamanian territory, and that may encourage them to start operating in Panama, who has stayed guerrilla free for most of their republican life.

Another situation being debated is that Panama is one of the Latin American countries that is free of aftose (food and mouth disease). Opening the gap may allow for the easier transfer of cattle and therefore the presence of the disease in Panama.

Trade has never been affected and the opening of the gap won't develop more trade. Most goods are shipped from country to country, and recently Panama had a serious grievance filed at the WTO about Colombia not accepting Panamanian imports from the Colon Free Zone. So again the gap is not an issue for present trade.

Panama is not flexible on opening the gap, while Colombia has been trying for quite sometime now. I seriously don't believe it will take place until the guerrilla situation is under control. Other than that things will stay the same.

Just curious, how does someone "look Spanish"?

Spanish is a language, do you look like a language?
Spanish can also be a nationality, but how does someone "look" like they are from Spain?
Maybe you mean that you look "Hispanic" but that is a little bit difficult, too, and not to mention it involves a great degree of stereotyping.
It's like someone saying they look "Swiss".

MikeMike,

I meant it as a contrast to someone looking very gringo, such as blonde, blue eyes, white/rossy skin and the like. The fact that I speak native Spanish and don't look like that didn't mean that they wouldn't say to each other "el gringo no quiere pagar más por el taxi" (=the gringo doesn't want to pay more for the taxi). I'm not a gringo and I understand all you say each other!!!

But trying to answer your... question, I can recognize some Spaniards fom miles away, as they can do with me. There have to be some patters, physically or attitude, I don't know. As well as some Brits can be recognized very easily, due to milky skin, freckles, etc. Other people look Dutch. I guess that in the US, being more of a mixture is less obvious, so you would base more on clothes (New Balance Trainers?).

Yesterday I asked one guy I see in a language school if he was Iranian, since he looked veryh Iranian (I feel great sympathy for Persians). "Yes, how do you know it? My parents are both Iranians, but I never lived in Iran". "Well, you look very Iranian anyway". Maybe you consider it stereotyping. I don't intend that, but still find it more probable that "looking like a language", though.doh

Interesting discussion as to how folks often reflect their birth country or recent ancestral country by their appearance as in body type, dress, hair styles , mannerisms,use of language etc etc etc.. The ability to be able to make such informed guesses is built on tuning in on a lot of subtle cues and does not in any way imply racism or stereotyping. I would have no problem if somebody clued in and called me a Dutchman .
:innocent::thumbup1:.
As to the topic of the Darien gap being crossable, well yeah, if one put enough money and effort into arranging an expedition I suppose it would be possible "on land" . But since there is no actual continual (good?) road it will still involve hauling a vehicle on boats or rafts , winches , dozers ..... . At what point does it really cease being a ride. Actually hndreds of people "cross the Darien Gap " everyday - just look at all the planes.
Mr Pedersen may have succeeded in hauling a bike through te jungles but ...is it really a bike ride if you drag an anvil across the world?
The entire conceit of doing a bike or car trip RTW depends on everybody agreeing that , okay, we'll have to make an exception for all the wet bits.
The point is to just have a great ride and see stuff and enjoy it. .
I think initially the USA agreed to funding for the whole route af the road but held off at first because of concern about transmission of hoof and mouth disease in transported cattle . Since then environmentalism, fear of criminal action, drug transport and native rights have put a damper on any enthusiasm for it, or so goes the narrative that I have followed

Hola ,
since you don't want naysayers, i say also go for it, and make sure you
blog about it.
But be ready to encounter some real difficult situations.


Something else:
Quote: Just curious, how does someone "look Spanish"?

Spanish is a language, do you look like a language?
Spanish can also be a nationality, but how does someone "look" like they are from Spain?
Maybe you mean that you look "Hispanic" but that is a little bit difficult, too, and not to mention it involves a great degree of stereotyping.
It's like someone saying they look "Swiss".


When i was working in a big hotel in London,me and a colleague always where guessing from with country the people that came to check in where from( before the even talked to us).
It is amazing how good you can get in this game after a while.
9 out of 10 i got right.
So i think that estebangc is right ,you can look like you are from a
particular country.(even if this is called stereotyping).

Saludos and good luck!

Hey guys, I've not been around to reply lately to get back to this discussion, so sorry about that.

Interesting discussion and I'm amused at how many people who haven't tried it are so keen to discourage others. I am not saying that I'm going to succeed, or even try it myself, but was keen to know what the consensus was.

Back to the digressing sub-discussion:

Maybe it's a Spanish thing, being able to note people's origins. I was brought up in Spain in a tourist town serving lots of foreigners, I would say I have a good eye for nationalities. I am often utilizing this ability as a conversation starter, even in sub-Saharan Africa it was remarkable how different looking each nationality were, Ethiopians are a striking contrast to their neighbours in Kenya.

Neil,

People are not saying "don't go", but just raising awareness of the difficulties you could face, especially if the first wrong or right 1st impression was that you hadn't collected too much info.

Some have said "go for it". I personally have said "probably all said that to Helge and he made it". We all here have heard others around saying "you won't do this or that" and know it is a pain. But this is a different case.

Bastards would say: "go & try it" (to force you ego and laugh at you later) or "I said it, you lacked the guts to do it". That would be more amusing, but not the case here. That's why I dislike your sentence: "I'm amused at how many people who haven't tried it are so keen to discourage others". I have never tried dog stools, but that doesn't disqualify me to say "I guess it will be disgusting and unhealthy" if I'm asked.

Ah, it's not taking it personal, it's that I just disliked it, no matter to whom it was intended.

Good luck with your final decision.

Esteban

You are good in explaining things Estebangc,
you wrote what i was thinking.

Giant Steps: Amazon.co.uk: Karl Bushby: Books

The Darrien crossing section in Karl Bushby's book 'Giant Steps' is well worth a read and should give you a flavour at least. I opted for the sailboat option and assume there are still plenty boats kicking around if you change your plan.

Hey guys, estebangc I wasn't directing it at you personally I was remarking on how things are so often directed to the negative... (even my statement seemed to go that way)... I recall in Sudan, I was faced with a similar situation of going 2 ways:

1) 1000km down the Nile on sealed roads to Khartoum scattered with towns.

2) cross the Nubian desert across sand with no roads, no water, no towns no nothing... first town is ~300km away at an estimated 2-3 days ride....

I regret doing the pussy thing and riding the roads. I met my friends a week later in Khartoum, and I felt rather sappy about it, missing out on the Sudanese pyramids etc.

Of course the story is a slightly more complicated than that, there was an injury amongst the people I was travelling with and we split ways, I went with the injured and stayed "safe". More about that here

You can see my similar dilemma with this coming trip, is the Darién Gap another ~Nubian Desert~ or is it a a pointless mission of ego.

When asked if he would do it again Helge Pedersen, author of 10 years on 2 wheels said "no way". He had no way to know what he was getting into back in those days. Just a stubborn Norwegian who once commited wouldn't give up.

While he technically got his R80 through the Darien, he didn't actually ride it much. Most of the way involved dragging it with the help of villagers and loading it into dugouts to take waterways.

He was sick and exhausted by the time he reached Yaviza.

If that sounds like something you'd like to try have at it.

I have been down in the Darien to the end of the road in Panama. I think an adventurous compromise would be to take the cuttoff at Meteti out the dirt road to Puerto Quimba and catch a launcha to La Palma where you can catch a local boat down to Jurado and get stamped out before taking the cargo boat down to Buenaventura Colombia on the Pacific side. Not many people venture down this route. Off the beaten track. Instead of a month or more this way only takes a couple weeks.

Just a thought.

Kindest regards,
John Downs

The desert is rideable. The Darien is not. If you haven't yet gathered the distinction, we've got a serious failure to communicate.

I didn't find this thread unduly negative at all. You asked a question which is often asked, and you were answered rather patiently. If you figure you're still facing a "dilemma," I can't imagine what further information you require to resolve it.

I'd add only that a mildly critical reader of the long distance runner's blog will note that he did not run through the Darien. He merely set off with his armed escort, complaining a bit when he tripped on a root. He then re-materialized somewhat later in Colombia, allowing the more credulous among his audience to conclude what they wished.

Mark

:confused1: I'm failing to communicate ideas.

Neil, honestly, I wish you the best with any decision you take. Honestly is that, honestly. If you decide not to try Darien (which is 90% of chances to say the least), you will just join the 100% of us here, nothing to blame, no comments, no criticism. Considering it, if seriously, makes you already 1% closer to any attempt, which may be the case for the rest of us who have never considered it, but it's still what it is: an idea (I guess I am failing even more to communicate; by contrast, English is definitely not my mother tongue).

We all have some sort of regrets in life which usually followed hard dilemmas, Nubian Desert for you, Pakistan right after the summer 2010 floods for me. I'm not going to blame the floods or my wife concerns at the time. I won't look for any guilt, nor was I going to force her against her will. I just didn't go. Just me (who knows if I actually I felt relieved, I only tend/want to think that NO, I really wanted it). However, my recipe against any regrets (as Franks Sinatra in My Way, "I had a few") is just to postpone the idea, the day to cross Pakistan will come, sooner or later, of that I'm sure. So I'd do the same with the Nubian desert: "it's in the agenda, yet to come", which is even better than overcoming it doing something different/harder. It will still be there and one day you'll have to come back to try it.

For a pretty balanced advice, maybe follow JDowns', it will sure give a good taste of Darien and a chance to keep on until Colombia if you still feel like or just plan B to "get me outta here". Even turning back after a few days, will still be more than most (all?) of us have tried.

In any case, now I say it, please do not take it personal, behind all these comments there is only good will/faith, in order to support you to take the right decision for you. You asked, people tried to help. Whatever it happens, enjoy your trip and, if you allow me to give an opinion, I would focus on enjoying Central America which is an absolutely gorgeous region, rather than on that piece of impenetrable jungle.

Happy travels,

Esteban

Oh dear ....hehe... I must have read what you guys put wrongly or simply I'm a little dim.

Yeah, OK.

I think what I was struggling to comprehend when I started this thread was whether or not it was feasible, or whether it was a threshold of misery most people choose (rightfully?) to give a wide birth.

I was guessing (when i started this thread) it was analogous with traversing the D.R.C./Angola and how many will ship their vehicles around from Namibia to Gabon (or vice-versa).

I see now it would be similar to trying to build a raft and trying to sail the Bering Strait and not knowing how to swim, or how to navigate a boat... it's not impossible, but certainly wouldn't be as rewarding as the misery you'd endure.

Though I would not go, I can understand why someone wants to cross it. But taking a vehicle to drag along and wrestle through the jungle (if that's the plan) really makes no sense to me.

Many say "I drove from Alaska to Ushuaia" and nobody did because of the Darien Gap.
But is it worth it to bring the bike through unknown territory?
Could you drive it or would you have to push it.

To be honest, I was more than once in troubles in known territory.
The rivers were too deep, the mud too slippery, the way blocked by mudslides or fallen trees or it was so freezing cold where the bike had to break down.
But I always was on a "way", were people would come (at least after a while) or were people were reachable within a walk.
I would guess: The Gap is a gap, right?

My biggest problem would be to be so isolated.

I have no clue how many kilometers one has to suffer, but the question is: How many kilometers can one make in an hour?
I remember myself in the Agentinian Chaco and the rain came. The sand became an unbelievable slippery mud in two minutes. I lost the bike, could not get ist up, because I was slipping as well. I took two packs and walked somehow to a house 1km away. Under my boots was more and more mud (I grew taller).
I was totally wet and worn out within 15 minutes. Guys came to rescue my bike by pushing it onto old railroad tracks and from there to the house.
Compared to the Gap I surely was on a picknick...

I hate picknicks!
Best wishes

I left 2011 with the gap in my sights however plans get changed and I have to now wait for the dry season because I have been spending almost a year just riding around the Central Americas the gap can be done again like it has in the past,I have been in the research mode for two years and there are some important things to think of like Fuel , Tires (lots) there are plants with needle sharp thorns that pierce rubber with absolutely no effort, Money (well hidden) you will need it for purchasing permission to go through tribal areas, Boat ride/s.
I have even spoken to some Heli loggers that have worked "ahem" alongside the Darien and thier information is bleak but do able.The logging has reduced the distance to almost 85 miles but the logged areas are a veritable maze of paths and old camps that can have you running in circles.There is so much negativity towards crossing the Darien:nono: I was asked if I am getting discouraged My answer," I'll let you know next time I see ya.":mchappy:

Bike.
 

The present issue of Bike magazine in the UK includes a short piece with photos of two German riders who recently crossed the Darien Gap. Lindsay.

This is a good read on the subject
"Obsessions Die Hard" by the late Ed Culberson.
Personally, I do not see a parallel between the Nubian Desert and the Gap, unless you equate pushing a motorcycle 80+ miles through the unknown with riding an established route from A to B.
Negative I know but some realism has to enter your planning.

What ever you choose have fun and be safe.

To bring attention to my blog I have posted this....

Many Americans are unsure if it is possible to drive from the United States to South America. Find out here: twowheelsthreeamericas

It's real funny man. Lots of smart*ss remarks but no one confirms nor denies that it is possible.

Besides, what is there to see except jungle and half-naked natives.:taz:

How much did it cost to get you and your bike across?? Thanks!

How much did it cost to get you and your bike across?? Thanks!

I haven't crossed but there are several who are booking passage on the Stahratte from Panama to Cartegena on December 8th.

We're going north on the 10 Nov aboard the Steel Rat, $900 US for moto and rider.

Cheers
Pete & Caf