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carrying pistol in central america.....
I know this is probably a touchy subject, but can anyone tell me if there are difficulties carrying a pistol through central/south america. obviiously i would keep it to myself whenever possible, and if they take away at a border crossing it won't be missed, i just want to know if anyone else has had problems carryinng ..........
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you can never be too careful eh.....especially been a new yorker.... carrying drugs and pimping whores.
when i travelled through the dangerous galactic emptiness we carried as many lethal dangerous weapons as possible, if you feel safer with death causing weapons...take more...perhaps grenades, claymores and even a 'nuke in a suitcase'. as an american you can go around killing innocent civilians...just for fun or for the great cause of Mr.Bush. the choice is yours my dear friend. |
Just for some background, I spent a year and a half in Guatemala doing social work in the late '80s and wasn't allowed to go anywhere without a U.N. issued .45. I'm not some weekend warrior having a mid-life crisis. I'm currently living in New York because i'm going back to school for law so i don't feel so completely helpless against the bush administration. I am completely ashamed to be affiliated with the united states because of what this government is doing. I just put up the post to see if it was a common thing to carry a gunwhen travelling through sketchy coutries.
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i have not travelled in South America except with the military.
I would suggest that carrying a pistol just ups the stakes especially if you are stopped by the military or police. I would also like to point out unless you are properly trained i.e. military or police in its use and care you are probably going to get killed by it either by your own hand or by the guy who takes it off you. Have you ever shot anyone? do you know how hard it is? I suggest if you pull it on some one who knows what they are doing then they will undoubtably take it from you and shoot you with it. I would. Leave it at home and if you get robbed hand over the cash with a smile and don kid yourself your a hero. Charlie |
I believe there are some openings in Iraq for Americans that want to carry guns.
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Hope I'm never touring behind you if you carry a gun, the 'baddies' might think I have one as well, and before long it might be normal to think 'Oh biker travellers, they will be armed, so perhaps shoot them first, in case they shoot you'. Gun? never even seen one let alone wanted to have one, and -perish the thought - needed to carry one.
What an odd thing to want to carry. |
Mexico is a no-no. Unless you have a permit, and IIRC, belong to a hunting/gun club, you will be arrested on the spot, and be looking at a darn long time sitting in a Mexican jail...not good.
-H- |
I've driven my family from Canada to Panama and haven't found myself wanting a gun along yet. I think the anxiety of the trouble caused would quite possibly ruin the trip.
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Hi Kidcalavera:
That’s sketchy countries are more safe than New York or others cities of your country. And I never thought to go to USA carrying a pistol. Maybe Because I’ never allowed go to your country; they never give me a visa. (I suppose the reason is that I’m from south America I mean this sketchy countries) A gun kills people, always which ever been the situation and I’ll never take off the life of anyone. We live here and we are not dead yet. Sandra & Javier [This message has been edited by javkap (edited 08 June 2005).] |
Hello together,
I just came back from a 4month-trip passing Chile/Argetina/Peru/Boliviana and Brasil. We did not take any weapon with us and we have never had a bad experiance with the peaple there. Just be careful and be aware of risks. However, do not forget to enjoy your trip. Yes, it might be that you had to carry a gun when working for UN, but as a tourist you wont need that. |
see : http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000458.html
finding clever (!) solutions (like beddhist) should be discussed, if you get attacked, robbed. kidcalavera, you seem quite well determined according to this post : http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000216.html think or think twice you re scaring me !!! |
I´d rather leave my panics at home and enjoy the adventure.
Entering the infinite world of possibilities is a privilege of a very few, don´t despise it! The apparent feeling of safety that a gun could give you will be vanished by the constant thought that you could be robed or assaulted. IMHO Motorcycling would lose the sense of freedom when you have the risk of automatically going to jail when caught with a gun , as you will inmediatly in my country. Think about it, Good Luck MoroCycler |
Leaving aside the moral question for the time being, I think there would be a great deal of difficulty in carrying a pistol through Mexico at least. I was stopped at checkpoints maybe a dozen times while riding the length of the country, and twice had the soldiers look through my things. Now they didn't search to the extent that I couldn't have hidden something, but guns are frowned upon as much or more than drugs, and I wouldn't risk it. If you had it hidden that well you wouldn't be able to access it quickly enough in a roadside holdup anyway. My outlook is that if you expect trouble, you'll find it, so I haven't and won't travel armed, even though I own firearms myself.
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you definitely should start a trip by analysing the risks of getting attacked/robbed like on :
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000458.html but no way (!) by thinking carrying a gun or smuggling whatever !!! i m amazed by this post !!! |
No need to be amazed - it's all about cultural differences.
In some cultures, carrying a weapon is considered common, if not normal - and when going to "dangerous places" of course you'd carry. The question is a fair one - and the answer is simple, as is pretty clear from the posts above - NO! Only in the US does the "average" person carry a weapon, (before an American dumps on me and says "we don't all carry guns" by average I mean just that - "average Joe" can and does carry - NOT meaning that everyone does!). Attendance at the first International BMWMOA rally (held in Canada) was significantly down from the usual - and the message I got from their bulletin board posts was that many wouldn't go because they had to leave their guns behind - no guns allowed in Canada. Let's keep this a fair and reasonable discussion, and allow for cultural differences - and be happy that we can discuss the differences in thinking that people around the world have - and learn about each other from the discussion - WITHOUT "dumping" on each other. And review this post on "Guns, knives and hand grenades" (started by a Brit): http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000054.html for more on the same subject - which seems to crop up with regularity! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
I can understand why vincent danna is amazed. Even though some cultures consider it "normal" to carry a weapon, it doesn't mean that if you come from a culture where it isn't normal, then you shouldn't voice your opposition to it.
I notice that this thread, started by an American, is asking about any difficulties in carrying a gun (the guy obviously intended to) whereas the thread on "Guns, knives and hand grenades", started by a Brit, was just asking for a view on carrying weapons - a bit different I think. My opinion is, if you carry a gun for protection then you are prepared to use it. Anybody in that frame of mind should not be travelling the world! |
No argument a different frame of mind in the two posts, - but all relevant to the thought/question of weapons. And no argument at someone being amazed!
Remember we are all here to LEARN! And kidcalavera is LEARNING how to travel safely - and without a gun. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Carrying it and actually using it are two very different things, as any self-defense instructor will tell you - but agreed, the "intention" is there. The education people get who visit this site will make a big difference for all who feel they need a gun for protection - or SAS training http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif - to survive "out there". Hopefully they will learn that the world isn't the big bad scary place they thought it was, and their (and I mean most, not one specific) government told them it was. A big smile, a handshake and a good attitude go a long way to solve all problems. Weapons only make a bad situation worse. ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Please if you need a gun, stay at home. I’ m helping travelers since a lot of time. I heard a lot of stories. And I make a lot of friends between travelers.
I’m proud to help them, but it would be too sad hear that a traveler kill someone. Or someone was killed because take a gun. And carrying a gun you always have that possibility. Sandra |
I'd like to contribute to the weapons carrying debate as a few years ago I did, in a way. Whilst driving through Morrocco in my beat up old citroen I was feeling a bit insecure due to being on my own and having had a few aggresive confrontations due to the Bush/Blair combo having just invaded Iraq.
I had a penknife with me like most people but did not keep it on me as I knew I'd never be able stab anyone with it. Instead I kept a 10" adjustable spanner under the carpet of the passenger seat. I thought at the very least I would be able to wave it menacingly and even convinced myself I'd be able to cuff someone with it if they got really nasty. I now look back at my largely trouble free trip (apart from some verbal from a few eejits) and am deeply embarrased by the precaution (so please dont slag me off!) You have to ask yourself very carefully: Are you prepared to kill someone, because thats what a gun means, are you prepared to shoot someone in the face because they want the $100 in wallet? If not why bother carrying a gun? Take a 'minimum damage' weapon like a spanner if you must (which can also be explained at customs) but be aware when you get back from your trip having met lots of great people and having had a fantastic time you'll feel a right twat for being so paranoid. matt |
It strikes me the debate has veered slightly from the original question (and quite rightly: this is an interesting and informed thread.)
The original question being: "would there be any difficulties..." [Answer: Yes. Get caught carrying a pistol that isn't registered, legal and declared and you will be in a LOT of trouble. Not slap-on-the-wrist trouble. *Probably* not taken-outside-and-worked-over trouble. But lock-you-up-for-your-troubles trouble.] "...if they take away at a border crossing it won't be missed..." [Answer: You need to look at this another way. The question is not whether the pistol will be missed. Will YOU be missed?] Being a citizen of the US who is ashamed of Bush is a great start, by the way. Mentioning that will get you out of a few tricky situations without recourse to a weapon! And if you can develop an appreciation of the finer points of World Cup qualifying, and name the best players in each country's national team, you're home and dry. Long live cultural differences - or rather, long live different cultures. |
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Travelling means sharing friendship with strangers.There is a risk of doing this.There are sad stories of travellers being killed...
and thats the part of not taking "caribean sea-cruiser ready to eat" vacacions. The best weapon you can take is a smile! my two cents KH |
Hi
My girlfreind and i have ridden all over Mexico, central and south america and have been stopped by the police and the military many time´s. we have had to show all our paperwork and posessions at customs on most borders, i think carrying a gun would probably cause a lot of problems,in 20 years of travel i have yet to get into a situation were i would need one.Its up to you in the end if you want to carry a gun or not. All the best Skip |
don t forget your little prayer every day before having breakfast lunch dinner and then take the road with your gun !
have a safe full of love trip jesus loves you ! big brother is watching you proudly spreading gun culture : you can even swap your gun against drugs and take them back home in your hidden place on the bike, big brother has been entertaining gun and drugs business for years, manipulating people. [This message has been edited by jedi knight (edited 10 June 2005).] [This message has been edited by jedi knight (edited 10 June 2005).] |
even thinking of taking a gun.........you're off your head !!
if the U.N issued you a gun way back then, that's all well and good. your not in the U.N now, just the real world, enjoy |
Don t forget to think about carrying little presents also with you :-), for help, see :
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000457.html |
Have you looked in the Touratech brochure recently? On pg 13 next to the gps mounts you can now also buy mounts for your machine guns and flame-thrower. With the weight of the armaments, you're likely to need a steering damper though.
Chris ------------------ TheBrightStuffDotCom |
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Matt |
What would I get if I tried to take a gun into the US..a trip to Guantanamo Bay most likely!
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What I find strange is that Kidcalavera says that he is studying law, so I assume he has access to legal books showing the requirements for, and repercussions of carrying a firearm in other countries.
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In fairness, Bill, that's not half as strange as Simmo assuming I was talking about the rugby World Cup!
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Fair point Mike....
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When I travel alone, I always carry a "fake" wallet with 10 or 20 euro worth of local currency and an old bankcard that's no longer valid. I have never been robbed but if they try, I'll give them my fake wallet and hope that's enough.
I'm afraid a bandit in a thirth world country knows more about knifes, guns and killing then I do so it's no use to try to beat them in their own expertise on their own ground. just my 2 cents |
FWIW - do not carry any weapon that you are not allowed to by the laws of the countries in which you plan to travel. Most governments seem to not allow their citizenry to carry firearms.
I, personally, do not fully trust any government that does not trust me. But that's just me. It seems, by the flavor of most replies to this thread, that the average user doesn't realize that the use of a firearm is a last resort, and carries with it a terrible responsibility. ------------------ Michael Jordan |
I agree with Jkrijt. Good trick with the fake wallet. I dont have a 'fake' as such, just a wallet with the days money in. No more than I can afford to lose.
Although I think perhaps we should go easy on the 'kid'. He asked for advice after all. Maybe the current feeling of paranoia engendered by the governments of, lets face it, more than just the USA, is making many of us feel like we need more protection than we really do. matt |
Where does everyone get their info, by watching american films? If you have no knowledge of guns and can quote no statistics perhaps your opinion could be questioned. And remember be nice, travelling and posting.
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Hi
It is a fair Q. There was A thread posted 22 may 2001 by "Blurgh" I'd like to quote part of my comment there: "Anyhow, I don't believe in such protection, if you come to a situation of self defence, the last thing is to draw a gun or a knife. It will be your end for sure,they will always outnumber you. locals will be against you in kind of revenge,and you will not have the time and language to explain your side, and the authorities will be insulted that you took the law and hunt you as well. My suggestion is to ride thinking of passive defence, do not enter alone to suspected areas. do not ride at night and ask other travelers on what is ahead." Ride safely Yoni |
I'm bored in Bogota on a wet day at the end of my trip, so I'll chuck my 20 peso obsolete coin into the ring.
Funny debate this one and a little one sided. I don't think the original poster deserves so much grief but I do like these types of question. Not had so much enjoyment since the guy asked about the pepper grinder. I don't think I personally have ever come across a situation when I have travelled where I have ever thought it would be useful to have a weapon. A dark night in Nairobi walking back to the Upper Hills Campsite probably comes closest when a car started following me slowly up a hill. I turned round to confront the driver only to find it was a big local lady worried for my safety. She even gave me a lift up the hill. I would have looked a complete muppet if I had whipped out a gun and pointed it at her. On the other hand I am not as naive to believe that very occasionally something very serious may occur. Unfortuantely it's not all peace and love out on the road. The girlfriend of a good friend was raped and he was beaten in an attack in the CAR. He quite fairly insists that if he had been carrying a gun then the incident would never have happened. Maybe more relevant to teh original post, I read a book about an English guy who rode a Triumph RTW a few years ago (not Ted Simon). He allegedly took a gun from the US and hid it under the seat for the duration of his trip. He also allegedly got shot in the head in Colombia but was saved by his helmet. Seems the gun never did him much good there but he did not get caught at any border. Anyway, my personal feeling is you have to respect the laws of the country you visit unless you want to be seen as an arrogant tosser. However you feel about guns they are not legal through central and South America. If anyone really wants to travel with guns then you can join the army. Babylon is quite nice at this time of year I hear. The Euphrates has some fantastic swimming spots too. As all the ride outs are booked up at the UK HU meeting, anyone on for the rifle range? It's even stopped raining in Bogota so I better end this long winded reply. Matt [This message has been edited by mattpope (edited 15 June 2005).] |
HI, nice thread, I have to add my opinion.
we are now in Ecuador and never have had an experience where I should have needed a gun. Not in Mex, nor other central american countries. There are some travellers who need to go always into those parts of the countries where even the locals dont go. There are parts of San Jose, Costa Rica at night, where even a gun would not get u around the corner. But beside the obvious dangerous places we have seen people smiling, waving but never angry. They are interested in your bike and yourself. We never had any trouble and I would rather talk myself out of strange situations than kill somebody....just imagine u do kill somebody who wants to steal your money or bike...u prob. do not have much fun hanging out in a prison down here. take it easy, most people are just great and happy that their live switched from existence to living down here.. Martin |
Geez,
The guy asks a question and somehow politics enters into it. Don't remember seeing anything about his political affiliation, or his support for the war. "as an american you can go around killing innocent civilians...just for fun or for the great cause of Mr.Bush." Why single him out as American? What if a Canadian, German, or Brit asked the same question, doubt we would see the same tone in some of the replys. Cut the guy some slack, an answer without the political rehtoric and attitude would have worked just fine. Were all just learning here eh! |
I think the fact he is America sorry from the US was fundemential to him asking the question.
It seems to me to be the only place on the planet with a reasonable democracy where a civilian can buy a weapon designed tto be used in battle. these type of Guns are for the police and military not for the general public. I am married to a US Citizen and I find it incredible that i can be walking down the street and pass people who own and carry guns who are untrained unvetted civilians. Is it acceptable in any other country? Would your country be ok with a forgiener walking around with a gun licenced or not? We would lock them up here thank God. Charlie |
It’s incredible we are still arguing about this post. He ask if he can carry a pistol; Ok at least in Argentina no. And I’m happy with that. He could come from USA, Argentina, Africa, France or wherever he comes from. And if he wants to take a gun with him that’s Ok .he is free to do what he wants.
I’m part of the Buenos Aires community, and I’m not made any difference to help all the travelers. But I’m not agreeing with guns. Because I’m not agree to kill people; so you are welcome to my country and Also to my house, but please take the gun out off my home. You are welcome guns not And that’s all; if you want to carry a gun I would respect your way of life even when I’m not agreeing. For me there is not more point of discussions. Anyone is free to do what he wants, and I’m talking about people not countries. He is a traveler not Bush. Sandra |
1. Why not contact the diplomatic missions of the countries you wish to visit in your own country. Ask them if a foreigner is permitted a firearm.
2. At the border declare your firearm to customs or the police. Make arrangements that if they wish you not to take a firearm into their country, it be forwarded to the exit border post for your collection when you leave. or 3 (my prefered choice). Leave the gun at home/ don't buy one for the trip in the first place. ChrisB ------------------ TheBrightStuffDotCom |
I think this topic is so popular, you should start a new "Debates on the Ethics of firearm posession" heading on the HUBB. People seem to be more interested in this than travelling.
[This message has been edited by ainslier (edited 16 June 2005).] |
An explanation, not an excuse.....
OK, so at first I figured the best thing to do is to just never write anything on this bulletin board again, because I'll always be referenced to as the guy who goes around killing foreigners. But for whatever it's worth to you, here's some background. I grew up outside of New Orleans, Louisiana during the '70s in a household in which guns were an everyday part of life. We hunted out our back door to save money on food, as did most of our neighbors. When we went fishing, we would bring a pistol, so that if the fish was big enough that it might break your line getting it into the boat, you reel it in close enough, then shoot it, then lift it into the boat. It was completely normal to walk into a 7-11 and the guy standing in line in front of you has a gun on his hip. It was a very rugged/ outdoor lifestyle. Whenever i go camping back home, I'll bring a small pistol, just to sit around at dusk and shoot tin cans off of a fence post. Killing anyone has never been a consideration. Also, I realize that most Europeans never see guns at all, so when they do it conjures up a thousand different scenes from American movies which depict guns killing people. We had a guest bedroom in our house, and I remember in the closet was a set of sheets and towels for the guests, along with a revolver and holster for the house guests to use. Now, please don't think I'm trying to tell you that i come from some utopia where everyone carries a gun and no one is ever afraid, and nothing bad ever happens. When I was 16 my best friend Ben was shot in the chest and lost a lung and almost his life in a bar fight over a quarter on a pool table. Fear and intimidation is what brought the gun to the bar, and pride is what shot Ben in the chest. Now i realize that had guns not been so commonplace, it probably would have just been a black eye an a few bruises. The possibility of being held up or robbed wasn't a consideration when i asked if people ever carry guns. The Federales have swindled me out of more money than any crooks ever have. I just consider a pistol as a piece of equipment when doing any serious trekking through wilderness. I've gone camping for weeks on end up in the Rockies, and the back country down in Louisiana, and have always brought a pistol with me.When ever i've carried a gun for protection, it was from bears and cougars rather than humans. Anyhow, take it as you will. It was a question, an inquiry to find out if it's something that is recommended or not. It was a solicitation for advice, not your judgement.. Kid C. |
Braindead - Since you asked,
"Is it acceptable in any other country?" Generally speaking, no "Would your country be ok with a forgiener walking around with a gun licenced or not?" No, not permitted here. ...But who cares about the laws elsewhere, thats not the point, they are what they are in the states, and although I don't happen to agree with it, no need to slag the guy. I hear it all the time in this country, the trashing of all Americans for their governments decisions, its a knee jerk reaction. Almost half voted against their government. Anyway, I still think a reply, less the political baggage & innuendo would have got us to the same place. |
The legal concept behind carrying a handgun in the U.S. is only to use it to defend oneself or others against specific, generally life-threatening attacks. In fact, many Americans consider carrying a handgun a responsibility to society, and that failure to carry is tantamount to condoning violent crime. When you are in the U.S., some of the nicest people you meet will be carrying a concealed handgun, and you will never know it.
Guns are not the cause of violent crime in the U.S. The causes are social issues such as weak or non-existent families, alienation of youth from society, and an extreme policy of imprisoning people for drug possession and sales. I carried a small PPK handgun throughout Mexico, Belize, and Guatemala in 1994. I probably would not do it again. I like to travel light, and the chances of needing it are too small. The chances of getting caught by the authorities, and the resulting penalties, are too great. Kid, you will find Guatemala is a VERY different place than it was in the '80s. The military reasons are obvious, but also this is a very peaceful, friendly country, with an active economy, hard-working people, and close-knit families and communities. |
Dear Kidcalavera,
Dont let a bit of slagging put you off posting on this most useful of forums, I think most people recognise you were just asking for advice. However, you admitted yourself in your original post that it would be a touchy subject so you shouldn't be surprised by reactions you may not like. Particularly on a subject involving weapons, as many travellers have a slight tendency towards hippy! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Good luck with your trip. matt |
Wow at the bleeding hearts.
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I would advise any treveler not to carry a weapon in Central America. Frist, odds are you won't need it. For example, in order to carry a weapon in Guatemala, you need a permit. If you are caught by the authorities without a permit, you will be in trouble. Most local recreational motorcycle riders don't carry weapons.
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How about pepper spray if you must.
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I was once ADVISED to buy a gun by border guards (as I was leaving Greece heading into Turkey). I said 'what about customs?' and the reply was 'put it in your sleeping bag when you go through customs, we didn't search you and noone else will!' True enough I could have got away with bringing it all the way to the UK but I never felt like I needed a gun. I didn't feel I needed one in South America when I was there and the only countries that I wouldn't want to travel through for risk of being shot are Iraq, Afghanistan and the USA.
There was a similar thread on adventure riders (wheres the best place to pack heat on a bike), and it had exactly the same effect of polarising political opinion between the 'we need a gun for protection' group (american) and the 'why on earth do you think that' group (rest of world). It seems to be that if you live in the USA then you do NEED to carry a gun for your own protection!! I just hope that the gun culture doesn't continue to spread to other countries, it will be a sad sad day when people in europe start shooting each other en-masse....... |
After twelve years of living in Africa, I spent two traveling around the states. Louisiana was my favorite state, along with Arizona and NM. (Drop me a line if you're traveling soon!) Reason being they were a bit wilder than other places. And that's why a lot of us travel. And that's why you'll probably love it here! The rules are sometimes more nebulous than they are in the West, or, are interpreted differently for foreigners.
In almost 30 years of traveling, much of it solo and in very out of the way places, I've never had a problem where I needed a gun. While living in bush in Kenya I would walk with a whip. Never needed it. When I returned to the US, initially I did sleep with a sheathed knife underneath my pillow. I've been traveling/living in Central America for over a year, and don't bother. I do have two dogs who would bark an alarm. But faced with a gang of bandito's, even if I had a gun I would be no match, and neither would my dogs. You take your chances wherever you are. And the places you're more likely to have problems is in the cities. I will say that if you do have a problem and you are in jail, depending on the circumstances, don't count on the American (or British) embassies to bail you out. When I did have a problem (a border crossing issue in a military zone) the American embassy basically hung up on my friend who had a US passport, and the British embassy, though very nice and understanding, said they couldn't help. So, smuggle with extreme caution. For spooking people off, you might want to carry some loud firecrackers. That should scare anyone away. I kept meaning to get some but... well, I've just never had any problems. Lorraine |
Firearms on trips?
As often happens with me, I have not read the entire thread, namely because I don't think that my input is sided with one opinion or another, but simply my experience.
When we travelled to Argentina and Chile, if you believed the Foreign office Website and fell for the South America stigma, as many of my friends and family did when we initially voiced our plans to travel, we would have travelled in a tank. Truth is I agree with the adage that if you assume you'll find trouble you will. Its more a case of don't assume you won't than assume you will!! I thought about a firearm for about half an hour but, like someone told me and another posted earlier, unless you know how to use it, and know you have no qulams about shooting someone else, aside from the legal ramifications, its likely the gun would land you in more trouble than not. When we travelled, the only thing we carried for our own preservation was our common sense and my plain, full-tang survival knife. The latter was more for the unforeseeable rather than cutting throats, camm-ed up, in the dead of night breaking my girlfriend out of the guerilla jungle base!! Actually just a tool to cut wood for a fire, gut a fish, dig a fire pit if we got stranded somewhere harsh... Once we got there, we soon realised that was pretty unlikely anyway. I say, don't bother. |
I mean no personal offence here, but cant you see why most of the world groans and rolls their eyes when you mention "Americans"
Sure, im not from your culture but I can't understand why anyone would feel the need to carry a gun. Especially when travelling. I own a machette, axes and other offensive weapons that are fine at home but I would never consider carrying them on a bike for "safety" Sadly, im groaning and rolling me eyes ! Leave the gun at home. P.S. Revolver for guest use ???... What is wrong with you yanks. :thumbdown: |
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It's a shame people feel it necessary to use this forum to slag off Yanks rather than to get them to think twice about the whole gun debate. Firstly, I would love to understand why there would be a gun for guest use? I take it for entertainment shooting cans, which I would have loved to be able to do as a kid growing up as a European. Secondly, the whole second amendment thing stems from the independence struggle as insurance for a militia to fight future invaders. It seems that since this has been faded from the minds and replaced with the notion that it's for safety walking down the street as some sort of vigilantly. People taking the law in their own hands. That's why we pay too much for a police force. That's years and cross generational indoctrination for ya. Can’t believe that people still think that guns are not the cause of violent crime. Without weapons (including fists!) there is no violent crime. Like that bar story. If there were no guns there would be a black eye, not a lung missing. But this is all irrelevant to his first question. So lastly, the quote says it all. I have had a few occasions where I thought I could have done with a weapon. Mostly right after the event with the adrenaline still flowing around. The more I travelled the smaller that weapon became in my mind. Currently I’m toying with that spanner idea. But even then, if you hit some dude on the head with that, you can be f*cked as much as stabbing the guy, depending on how hard you hit him off course. You could use it as a deterrent, but you are upping the stakes. I reckon good things happen when having a positive mindset. The opposite of that is fear of things going wrong. But if your question is related to wildlife, I think you have a different trip in mind than generally discussed here. You’ll probably find that you’d be lucky to see any large wildlife that would warrant a weapon. And in that case they’d probably be hunted enough to know to stay away from you. Regarding bears though (bit of a pet fear for trekking in their terretory for me), haven’t there been cases of guys with guns still being killed or attacked? Just wondering though…. |
I didn't have time to read through all the decent advice mixed with the self-congratulating drivel, and anti-Bush soapboxing. Bush is an idiot. Clinton was an idiot. Bush before him, too, was an idiot. Get over it. As a US citizen, without a criminal record, I will happily carry my weapons with pride. No, I will not show them to you, nor will I bully my way around with them. But, if I feel that you are threatening my or my family's life, during a purposeful crime against me (i.e.robbery/rape/attempted murder) then you better hope that you can overpower me because I will first warn you, and then if you continue the threat, shoot you. Simple as that.
The US second amendment has been left intact in order that we have the means to re-take our government if it gains a little too much power over the sheep that are also known as US citizens (come to think of it, could we currently be successful in such an endeavor...?) That being said, living right on the US/Mexico border, I often see a sign placed next to the road on the way down to the crossing that states "Guns and ammo are illegal in Mexico" or something to that effect. Mexico would not hesitate to put a US citizen in jail for having even just a live bullet, in spite of the fact that it is acceptable for drug/human smugglers to be armed to the proverbial teeth. So with that, I have never, ever taken my guns across the border with me, nor will I ever do so. I would not even imagine trying to go further south with one, either. I have read and spoken in person about many a successful extended journey by bike south of the US border. However, carrying guns is a personal choice, and one that you have to make yourself, and weigh the risks against the benefits. If it were legal, like in many of the US states, then I would say "go for it." But I can only imagine the mother of all bribes someone would extort out of you if you were caught in any of the countries. BTW, Grant, I would never NOT go to Canada just because I couldn't take my pistol with me. Just as ridiculous someone might find me and my carrying of weapons, I, too find those people ridiculous whining that they couldn't take their guns into Canada, and thus did not go. Please note: the difference between some of the obnoxious rantings I read on this thread and my opinion(s) is that I am not saying that I am right; it is just what I do and practice, and believe. |
Interesting thread.
The United States fascination with guns is incredible. School shootings, shooting at NASA you name it. In just about all other countries the carrying of hand guns is illegal. In NZ the cops don't even carry hand guns, and the reason is related to perceived threat. If you take a gun into a foreign country and get shot or land up in jail I'll be the first to tell you "it serves you bloody right" I realize that this may upset some of you but: You yanks need to take a chill pill and get it out of your head that violent solutions to complex problems don't work. In the mean time why don't you consider spending some more money on road safety training and defensive riding techniques. It ain't a gun wielding Mexican that's gonna kill you... It'll be a cage driver failing to give way at an intersection. |
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So do you think that drugs are a good thing ? Do you not think that drugs could possibly be one factor that destroys families, (a good friends son would habitually steal with violence from his parents to feed his heroin addiction) alienates youth from society, (wasting there lives) and selling drugs doesnt lead to other illegal activities ? and is drug use/sales often involved with violent gun crime or not ? Just my thoughts..... There is no point carrying a weapon - if you need to conceal it to get through the many police/military checkpoints in CA then it is no use to you kept somewhere where it cannot be brought to bear on the 'enemy' quickly. Just avoid the rough areas (parts of DF, Belize City, San Jose(esp), Panama City) IME, I worked in Mexico and CA for a year and had no problems. |
pointless
there are more guns per capita in the posession of swiss citizens than american citizens. However in switzerland there is virtually no gun crime. ( I think about 3 years ago some guy shot up a town hall because they refused a planning application). So crime is due to the people, not the availablity of weapons.
In the UK since all the legally held hand guns were confiscated, gun crime has soared dramatically. As there are no legally held handguns now, gun crime should be impossible. Seems those nasty criminals dont always register their guns :) Carrying a weapon on a bike is pointless. In the event you might need it you will never have time to deploy it unless you are the aggressor. A long time ago it was perfectly possible and legal to shoot the odd rabbit for the evening meal when camping. Sadly these days you just cannot ride a bike about the UK countryside with a rifle. In France you are allowed 'self defence' weapons. these are low powered pistols mostly, which can be lethal at 5 metres or less. One model is essentially a 12 bore double barrelled pistol ( with reduced 2" loads). Great, so I am stopped on my bike, just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ? |
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As for self defence, how many times has anybody been in a situation they needed a gun? Most likely events you wouldn't even see anybody coming. Bugger that one time. Who's to say I couldn't get out of it without. |
I wonder, who could use a gun for self defence ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Miss America 1944 catches would-be theives WAYNESBURG, Ky., April 20 (UPI) -- Miss America 1944, now an 82-year-old Kentucky farmer, foiled thieves by shooting out one of their tires and holding them at gunpoint until police arrived. "I didn't even think twice," Venus Ramey told the Cincinnati Enquirer. "I just went and did it. If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be six feet under by now." Ramey suspects that the three men she caught have been removing old farm equipment from her shed for some time and selling it for scrap. When she finally caught someone in the act, he said he was "scrapping" and promised to leave. Ramey, balancing on her cane, pulled out her .38 revolver. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said. Ramey, who had moved her truck to block theirs, held the three men until a passing motorist called 911 for her. A native of Kentucky, Ramey spent her teenage years in Cincinnati and then moved east to try to get into show business. She was Miss America 1944, entering the pageant representing the District of Columbia. She does not like to be asked if she "was" Miss America. "I still am. You never live it down," she said before laughing. "There's only one in 1944 -- and I'm it." |
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A gutsy lady for sure and if there were more people like her in this world - guns or no guns - there would be a lot less crime . Mr tmotten said --- " As for self defence, how many times has anybody been in a situation they needed a gun? Most likely events you wouldn't even see anybody coming. Bugger that one time. Who's to say I couldn't get out of it without---- " Well , I have found that a violent agressor can very quickly change their mind when they are looking at the business end of a 12 guage and it's awfully strange that when we had a string of burglaries in our area that my place wasn't bothered . Hummn makes you think doesn't it ! This thread has veered off course into a yank bashing session and a political soapbox for some . So here goes : Some people regard motorcycles with an unrational fear based on lack of understanding , as motorcyclists ,I would have thought the members of this forum could have had a more open and objective viewpoint on the subject of guns . When I was at school we had weapons training in the cadet force and it was considered a worthy achievement to have gained a marksmanship badge and have learned the discipline involved . Rural life has led me to regard a gun as a tool that allows me to do part of my job .A gun is a machine ,nothing more ,nothing less . The banning of handguns in Britain has achieved nothing other than to alienate the enthusiasts of an olympic sport and has not made Britain a safer place . Criminals have always been able to get their hands on illegal weapons . I consider it very unwise to carry a concealed firearm outside of one's own country , however [ unlike some people here] I would not be so crass as to make snide remarks about a subject and a country and it's people that I so plainly know very little about . Think about this for a minute ---Maybe all motorcycles should be banned because "EVERYBODY KNOWS " that they are dangerous , What's wrong with you ADV TOURING guys ? - I know YOU ,YOU are the ones that have bikes with knobbly tyres that rip up footpaths ,destroy the environment and scare small children . And just to finish my rant : old bmw said -- " just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ?_"' --You pull the gloves off with your teeth old boy and then instead of handing your wallet over to the poor misunderstood victims of modern society ,you give them a big surprise and ruin their whole day . |
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here are some more facts from the US. BTW contrary to populer belief you cant just walk in to a gun store and buy a gun without a background check and usually have a waiting perioud. Also regulations vary from state to state. Now saying all that the cities with the strictest gun control in the US, New York, Chicago and Washington DC all have the highest murder and violant crime rate in the US. In the 1980's Miami was number one for years, then they passed a law allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons for self defense and the very year that went into effect the crime rate plummeted. I know and have know more police officers than I can count, and never have I met one yet that thinks gun control laws will stop crime. In fact since we deal with criminals every day we KNOW it will have the opposite effect. The latest killing in virginia, guess what it is illegal to have guns on the school grounds. It used to be legal to have a firearm on collage grounds and just down the road from where that shooting took place severl years ago some idiot showd up to massacure a bunch of people. When he started shooting a CITIZEN pulled their legal firearm and killed the want to be murder so that insted of 30 people being killed only two were shot. Here is an idea, why not make murder illegal? Oh wait it is, and that doesnt stop the crime. Also look at how well making drugs illegal is stopping drug use. At the end of the day people that believe gun control works are well meaning but misinformed. Saying all tha NEVER EVER take you firearms accross borders, you are asking for troubel with the law there. |
DODGER Wrote: "The banning of handguns in Britain has achieved nothing other than to alienate the enthusiasts of an olympic sport and has not made Britain a safer place"
I would STRONGLY disagree - gun control WORKS! We do have a growing problem with 'US style' gang shootings (yet another great American export) but the murder rate is very low compared to the US, you are still much more likely to get hit with a bottle or similar than shot!!! You can still get a gun if you have a legitimate reason (THIS INCLUDES ALL .22 CALIBRE COMPETITION WEAPONS!!!!!!). Our law does not consider a desire to shoot another human as 'legitimate', even if they are tresspassing. Farmers are allowed to shoot dogs. Ever watched the British news? Headline national news on all 4 of our terrestrial TV channels a few days ago featured the shooting of a man in a takeaway in Leeds. He was targeted, selected and shot, presumably because he was involved in some sort of criminal activity - would a murder like this make even the Local LA news? Sure there will still be crime if there were no guns but I would rather get hit in the face than shot - esp. if it's over a minor dispute. It is my understanding that the US Constitution allows the bearing of arms so that citizens can rise up against an oppressive government, which would be a great use of all that domestic small arms firepower!!! Guns don't kill people, a trigger happy, avaricous and paranoid population does - just look at Switzerland, highest level of gun ownership in Europe, lowest murder rate. All Swiss citizens are issued with a handgun by the government when they finish their military service, but they are properly trained and live in a country with good social cohesion. I have several good American friends and am not trying to 'Yank bash', but I work with statistics and contrary to popular opinion they do not lie! You must be able to see that the gun culture is directly linked to the murder rate (NOT the availability of weapons) I am also not a bleeding heart lefty - I own several air rifles (for using in my garden) and have access to a variety of shotguns and rifles either on farmland or my local gun club. For the hippies here I eat everything I kill so don't start.... Would never want to eat a person so won't shoot one!! |
When all is said and done?
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Interesting how a question that was asked nearly two years ago has come around over and over again; it seems that it will ever be so. The last couple of posts from the US and UK appear to encapsulate the discussions (& cultural differences identified) that have taken place here since the first post - the majority answer to the original question seems to be a resounding "no, don't do it, the juice is not worth the squeeze". For my two pence worth, the criminals will always have the initiative over law-abiding people because they do not obey societies rules (Fortunately, they are a minority still). That is not a reason to join them in willfully breaking local laws on possession of firearms. |
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I reckon those 20 bucks are not worth a wrecked life if they take you up on your challenge. Which in macho third world cultures is more than likely. The coppers surely wouldn't be on your side. There's an Aussie guy in Sudan now up on death row because he's held responsible for the murder (which is actually a suicide) of someone in his group. He probably didn't want to pay the extortion money. Quote:
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In either case, if all those people in that room have guns, by the time they would have been able to draw and aim accurately enough this guy would have still taken enough people out. How many deaths are enough? The US has the third highest gun crime rate in the world. Behind Brazil and South Africa. Interesting stat that, considering how many other countries I can think off before I get to a western country that matches that. You can't ignore that and KNOW not having guns around reduces these stats. Australia did it and got the result. But it's like religion I guess. If it's all you've ever known, you believe it. You can't compare this issue with an addiction to drugs though when there's desperation involved. Plus you'll find most drug mules are forced into it. |
Henryuk , thanks for your comments and I wholeheartedly agree with you on most points ,however the following olympic pistol disciplines are now illegal in Britain -
• 25m pistol (30+30 shots) Women • 25m rapid fire pistol (60 shot) Men • 50m pistol (60 shots) Men Is Britain really a safer place because it is illegal to shoot competition pistols ? I think not . .22 calibre is also deadly .So in my mind the law does not make sense . Yes I have watched the news in Britain - thousands of times . No ,I have no idea what makes the news in LA . Britain has always had a lower incidence of gun crime per capita than the USA perhaps for many of the reasons that you indeed illustrated and Britain has always had stricter gun ownership regulations than many of the United States .However stricter laws did not stop the Dunblane killings and ,despite further legislation since then ,there has been an increase in armed crime in Britain .So what good did it do to penalise responsible sportsmen and women ? I have never thought much about Switzerland but I do know that many shooters from Britain have moved there to continue their sport .I believe Switzerland adopted it's unusual policy towards gun ownership as a consequence of being invaded so many times . Perhaps there is some merit in the quiet confidence and peace of mind that is brought about by being able to defend one's self . Certainly an enemy is far less likely to attack a nation that is prepared to defend itself. I know enough about statistics to know that they can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to show . Churchill once said " There are lies and there are damnable lies but the most damnable lies of all --- are statistics !" [But I believe he stole that quote from Disraeli ] |
Mr tmotten said " - Do you advertise in your street that you have one? The point is that you'd be the one looking down that 12 gauge. It's the peple that wish to commit a crime that are advantage from these gun laws. - "
No I don't advertise , it gets passed around by word of mouth . No I don't live on a street , I live way out in the boonies .[unreliable phones and police many miles away ]. Yes ,it's me looking down the barrel of a shotgun because that's how you sight them on a potential target [you don't aim a shotgun ] . What gun laws are you referring to ? What country ? You didn't include it in your question . If you assumed that the incident occured in the USA you are mistaken. You asked a question and I provided an answer - I am sorry if you did not like my answer. Then tmotten went on to say : Originally Posted by Dodger And just to finish my rant : old bmw said -- " just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ?_"' --You pull the gloves off with your teeth old boy and then instead of handing your wallet over to the poor misunderstood victims of modern society ,you give them a big surprise and ruin their whole day . Your response was : I reckon those 20 bucks are not worth a wrecked life if they take you up on your challenge. Which in macho third world cultures is more than likely. The coppers surely wouldn't be on your side. There's an Aussie guy in Sudan now up on death row because he's held responsible for the murder (which is actually a suicide) of someone in his group. He probably didn't want to pay the extortion money. --------------- This was a lighthearted reply to what I thought was a lighthearted message from oldbmw . The whole hypothetical scenario was not fully detailed by oldbmw but I am assuming he meant France ,so quite what relevence it has to some poor individual in Sudan is beyond my understanding .Do they have a death row in Sudan , if so where is it , do you have proof it was suicide ? Do you have proof that he didn't pay the extortion money ? Or are you surmising ? Please go back and read my comments about venturing beyond one's own country with a pistol . |
Wow :)
I didn't realise we had a real-live political gun thread going on here. Way cool... I didn't follow this thread before because I thought it dealt with carrying a weapon while on a bike trip through foreign countries, which would be just plain stupid, IMO. Again, IMO, nothing, and I'll include sex here too, gets a man's attention faster than the sound of a pump shotgun be racked. Something like: "Sir, you now have my attention." |
Something to ponder
A report from the Fraser Institute , make of it what you will.
Fraser Institute - Gun Laws do Not Reduce Criminal Violence According to New Study |
Missed the point
I have just read though this entire post. and interesting as it is it really has missed the point a lot!
Kid C. - carrying a gun while traveling ..morally right or wrong, in todays terror climate.. i think it would be next to impossible to carry any weapon (gun or knife {that you could not claim is a tool..e.g. pocket knife/multi tool) without getting caught (on an extended trip.. one or two borders maybe.. but lots..nah). And worse the penalties are getting to be just silly (death in some places.. ). As you are American (and as you can tell by the tone on many of these posts) there is a bit of Anti-American/ War machine feelings in the world, which may make YOU the target of greater searches. I travel a lot for work. As an Aussie (Which BTW we are also in the forces in Afghanistan but people forget that fact), I tend to get waved through customs with at most a quick look where as my workmate (Yank) gets searched like buggery. (And i am the rougher looking shaved headed.. skrufffy bloke one... he is kinda a geeky wimp). So I think the possibility of carrying one with out official trouble would make it not so worth it. having said all that.. I dont really see the need as well... for any weapon to be of use in a Danger situation it needs to be easily accessible at all times..which means you have to have it in such a place that would make it easy for customs to find.. see above... I wont get in to the moral issue about killing people or even animals.. except to say ... in my travels I have come across bears and ones with a cub... and acting submissive and walking away worked.... and never been mugged, except for the legal way.. Customs patrols...taxes.. and pulling a gun on them would not have helped Good luck to you mate.. and keep it rubber down... |
So do we now get a thread on how to mount the .45 next to the GPS on the BMW? Maybe Touratech could come to the party?
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Mollydog,
I'll take the left handed version so that my throttle hand is able to function OK! |
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I think this sort of gun-mount is more usefull. I call it the truck-killer.
http://www.maartensworld.com/images/truck_killer.JPG Just to be clear: This is a joke. (although there were times I would have liked to have this setup when run of the road (again...) by a tata in Pakistan or 'just a truck' in Colombia) But for selfprotection against robberies etc... I believe your smile :biggrin3: and determination are the best weapons. Maarten:mchappy: |
People... this guy is looking for advice only, if you can't help him keep you political opinions to yourself. I'm from Argentina and I feel more safe in N.Y. than in Buenos Aires, like Sandra and Javier said, there are not dead YET!!!, just take a look a the news...
My advice... take a good course on self-defense, and be aware of the simbols written in the walls on the street, specially in mexico,guatemala,honduras,colombia. Other thing... unlike the States, in central and south america it's a crime to carry a weapon (not only fire arms) for everybody to see, even if you have a permit, the weapon must remain concealed. The only weapons I carry when I travel even in the States is knives, a 6" fix blade in my belt, a 4" folder in my pocket, and a very usefull one, 1 1/2" blade neck knife. Police never had a problem when they saw the one in my belt, the other remains in secret, still when you are in the cities you must concelead all weapons. Somenoe said in the post "weapons kill people" I disagree, people who doesn't know how or when to use it kill other people. Rapist, murderers don't fit in my list of "people", be prepared if you go to Brasil.... Have a nice ride... Loner. |
guns inadvisable
I am an American and I carry no firearms unless I am on a hunting trip--I do hunt deer on occasion and I have carried my rifle on my motorcycle.
I notice my Hispanic friends here in the Columbia Basin are very knowledgable about firearms and have them available most times, mostly they say to protect themselves from others from their homeland area. A sad thing related to labor issues I'm told by the sociologists. I cannot imagine a situation where a traveller would be excused if s(he) was discovered with a firearm. Not a way to go visiting. I have ridden to rallies in the United States for 30 years and only on rare occasions have I discovered firearms were carrried by attendees. To characterize us motorcyclists as gun toters is incorrect for the most part. This may be common among certain riders and marques in certain urban jungles, not so much for the rural American enjoying the great landscapes we have. Enjoy. Be kind. Life is short. |
Sorry to write again, but Matt... you write in you post something like : we need to ask ourself if we are ready to kill somebody... other write "if your traveling with a gun please stay home".
From the posts that I already saw from Kidcalavera, the guy knows how to use a gun... that's not the point. Is not the point, also, if we are ready to kill... nobody is gonna pull a gun for a mere robbery, that is going to extreme... but, i.e. Brasil is not only mere robbery, some of them will kill you just for your shoes, even for the bike, happened in the past and is happening now... so the point is, in a extreme case like that, are you prepare to die? For a close experience, with a friend of a friend, in '98, Rio de Janerio, Brasil, the robber just kill the guy for a camera, shot before even ask for it, his friend without a gun can't shot back of course, but also wounded. So in my mind always is "better you(the robber) than me"... I had a few bad experiences in Brasil and Argentina. In Brasil I fought back (I had my gun, never pulled out, because was hand to hand), but in Cordoba, Argentina at 10.25 am on Ruta Nacional 9 going north two guys opened fire at me(I was riding!!) from the side of the road, I shot back... I understand Kidcalavera, I just hope that he or everybody else that carry a gun could know when to pull it. Kidcalavera, I can help you with a few tips about Brasil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Venezuela, Ecuador and Peru if you need... Thanks. Loner Yahoo! Loner. |
It makes me sad...
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Everybody has to do what he or she thinks is the right thing. That is the price we pay for freedom. All we can do is hope that one day, the blind ones learn to see. Maarten:mchappy: |
mmaarten: I don't undestand complety what are you trying to say... but anyway, don't take what I said and put it out of the contest... What I said was : Nobody is gonna pull a gun for a mere robbery, thats mean... if someone try to take something empty handed, you have to be real crazy to pull a gun... Everybody should fight back, but with the same amount of force received, Can you imagine what the court will think if you shot a guy unarmed who tried to steal your wallet and he was running?
Common sense... Loner |
I think it's pretty obvious
Hi Loner,
I did not pull anything out of context. I just showed two very diferent sides of responsible people that carry a gun. Let me show an other example: We all find it terible and in-human that someone gets shot for 50 U$. But in the eyes of many gun-carying people it is completely normal to shoot someone only because he wants to take the same 50 U$ from you. Yes, the robber it at fault because he started it, but does that make the guy who shot the robber for 50 U$ more human? What I am trying to show is that the isue is much more complex then you might think. There are so many "however" and "but if" arguments. They say: "Gun's don't kill people, people kill people". That is not completely acurate. It should be: "Gun's don't kill people, people with gun's kill people" However (see, there we go) I can understand your point of view. Once I was mugged by four guy's. I had a "robery-wallet" (with 10 U$) with me, but I did not give it to them simply because I was angry. One of the guy's bit me in my arm and that pissed me off so much I started to fight and I actually tried to kill one of them. Luckilly he got away (and so did his friends). If I would have been carying a gun or even a knife, I would have killed him and spend a long time in a Colombian jail. This is the entire isue. No one in their sane mind will use his gun on an other human. But sometimes people get so angry they momentarily loose their mind. At those moments it is better to be un-armed or you end up removing some poor guys lung over a quarter on the pool-table. Since you do not know when this moment will occur, it is better to never carry a gun (unless you are hunting or shooting competition) But like I said before: Everyone has to decide by himself. That is the price of freedom. Freedom for me to "not carry a gun" and freedom for you to "carry a gun". I just hope no one mistakes my quarter on the pool-table for his and..... Maarten:mchappy: |
Hi Maarten ,
Criminals seek an easy target ,they pick out weak people and people who are out of place .They like easy targets ,they do not want to work too hard . The muggers who attacked you ,ran away when you fought back .If you were a small lady ,what else might they have done to you ? Sometimes being able to defend yourself and making that obvious to a "would-be" attacker will prevent an attack and /or robbery. In our modern society criminals will attack ,beat up and kill people just for "kicks" if they think they can get away with it .. The elderly lady in the example above was able to prevent a robbery because she had a means to defend herself and her property.The robbers were scared of the consequences if they carried on with their burglary . However a person who wants to find trouble will usually find it ,barfights are barfights and guns , knives ,bottles ,boots and pool cues can all kill a person .It is wrong to differentiate between weapons used in violence. |
mmarteen: Hi again... Let me tell first, you were more than lucky to survived in Colombia in a situation like that, I, being ex-cop, and having many years of experience in martial arts, I always think twice if there is more than two against me...That moment of crazyness enough to kill somebody has a legal term used very often, 4 against you is enough to claim self-defense even if you shoot someone, but in the colombian legal system, well...I don't know...
anyway... you were some lucky guy that day. Back to the point, what your are saying is true too, but you opened another door... and that is about training... carry a gun is more than know the gun, how it work and how to take aim, carry a gun means, or should mean that you know the legal consequencies of pulling a gun, and used it...also means that you must know about laws, and most important you have to know yourself. For my experience, most of the people I know and knew never pulled a gun for something that is no worthy... Now... back at you story in Colombia, that could be a life or death situation (you could have been stabbed in the fight) in my point of view, in your shoes, I've could used a gun and shot, I prefer be in jail rather the guy 6 ft. under. The point is many people just don't know when to pull a gun, and also, the sense of life-threating situation change from person to person. But I strongly believe that nobody should be in position to restric our ways to feel safer, if we make a mistake we'll pay for it, that's for sure. |
"But I strongly believe that nobody should be in position to restrict our ways to feel safer, if we make a mistake we'll pay for it, that's for sure."
Maybe the question is, what do you need to feel safer? Is there a limit? Should there be a limit? Some people need a knife to feel safer, others a gun, still others something more powerful. The size and power could esculate ad infinitum. Perhaps this is the most dangerous thing. At 5'2" and 105 pounds, I'm what you'd call a small female and against a physical attack could easily be overpowered. I've traveled solo most of my life to dangerous places in the US and so-called risky places in other countries. I'm not unattractive. I don't carry a weapon. I've never been attacked. You would probably call me stupid/crazy. I call myself street smart. It's a skill which takes years of training, intelligence and a highly developed sense of intuition. I've learnt how to avoid potentially volatile situations, and if in them, how to talk my way out, and walk away without physical injury. Perhaps this is something which could be taught to people who feel the need to carry a weapon don't feel so much at risk. Lorraine |
pre-emptive justice, they probably diserve it...
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Is "pre-emptive-justice" even a real word? I partly agree with Loner. it is all about "knowing yourself" and even more "controling yourself". But Loner is (as he says) an (ex)-police-oficer and he is trained in handeling situations where guns play a part. I on the other hand, am not trained in that and I would probably shoot some-one... and so would (as statistics proof every time) thousands of others. In my opinion Lorain hits the button: Street-wise. You don't need a gun to step out of the "victim-role". It is your attitude, body-poisture, gestures. Some one who is walking with a camera around his neck, hands in his pockets and eyes to the ground is a victim.:scared: If the same person is looking around with open eyes, hands out in the open and a poisture that does not sugest submision, he/she would (most likely) not get robbed because, as Dodger stated before, muggers like easy prey. I still believe that a gun only 'upps the stakes". If the mugger intents to kill you anyway, he won't let you get your own gun out in the first place. If you have any experiance in serious robbing you realize you have no chance to pull out a gun while a sharp knife is only milimeters away from your eye or throuth. All you can do is hand over the cash and shoot them in the back as they run away, :gun_bandana: but that makes it murder. In the robbery I discribed earlier I was not that lucky. The guys were totaly stupid. :oops2: If they would have pulled a gun or knife I would have been happy to hand over the 10 U$, but they did neighter and I knew that (They usually make sure you see the knife or gun). Ofcourse I was also stupid to react that way.... but hey, remember, I am stupid and naive :clap: Maarten:mchappy: |
Check out this site someone mentioned on some other thread. This guy's WALKING around the world and this excerpt is about encountering guerillas from all sides and police near and within the Darien Gap. He understands completely how to judge his captors and work the scene without a weapon.
DARIEN GAP Lorraine |
lorraine.... there is no limit to feel safe... look at world examples, cold war, USA and USSR, there is no limit...but in our day to day case, the most powerfull thing you can have is a gun or machine gun...
I don't call you names but "very lucky", You have to undestand that not everybody have your "highly developed sense of intuition", and I can assure you, there is some situations that you can't predict or talk your way out. If you never been involve in one of this, doesn't mean that doesn't exist. But how did you learn about those situation if you've never been involved in one, someone tells you how to do it?? in that case I'll like to know if you can post some "street-smart" advice so kidcalavera could feel more safer... Like I said before with 7 years in the police force, and another 12 in martial arts, I feel pretty safe, but I always carry a knife. I understand most people who never trained, and my advice is spend a couple hundred bucks and get any kind of training, boxing, karate, etc...that will help you to overcome the fears, those that comes of not knowing yourself and your potential, then you will not need a gun, will be enough a utility knife or a hard plastic/metal ballpen. Loner. |
I dont wish to offend anyone but this sounds so rediculous.
We're meant to be travellers, not invaders ! How can any situation be solved by pulling out a firearm ?? Really.. Just one example ?? If you get held at gun point (The chances of that are very very minute in any country but a warzone), are you going to pull out your six shooter and have a shoot out.. ?? You maybe in Colombia and get stopped by gorillas. You gonna pull out your six shooter ?? See how long you last against Automatic weapons ! A knife or machete is a tool as apposed to a gun which has one sole purpose.. TO KILL ! Its very obvious to all that bringing out a firearm in ANY situation is going to get someone killed.. that someone is more than likely going to be the gringo ! Im stopping now before I offend anyone. |
Hi... Tedmagnum, you are not an invader for trying to protect yourself, doesn't matter what you are carrying, could be a pepper spray!!
The only one example you're looking for is when somebody shoot at you, if you read one of my post on this topic (page 6)I explained How, When and Where it happened. Now, like you said, if you are hold at gun point or knife point, your chances are 20% to walk out in one piece, so my opinion, and only mine, is... what the h... at least I will fight back, even if a don't have a gun or knife I will fight back. My question for everybody is ...are you prepared to fight back in a bad situation?, if your are not that kind, Why you are carrying a gun or knife? and if you are, Do you know what you are about to do? ,and How to do it? and the consecuences? and when I said "prepared to fight back" I mean, Do you have the knowledge to fight? Do you know how to react to the adrenaline rush?, in short, Do you know yourself? |
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If someone pulls a gun on me they are going to be doing it for 3 reasons. To rob me, kidnap me or out of blind lunacy. Unless your Clint Eastwood with a arevolver on your belt and a piece of straw in your mouth, your not going to be able to use your gun and win. Even if you do pull a weapon, the chances are YOUR DEAD FIRST !! Im not prepared to go up against a firearm unless I KNOW that they are just there to put a cap in me. I dont think any robber wants to shoot someone. They would probably only do it if you pulled your gun out. If someone pulls a gun on me, then they can have my dam wallet, bike and laptop etc without a fight. Its just not worth the risk. My life is worth more than a bike. I trained and taught Kungfu for 5 years. Im fit, young and pretty well built. Hand to hand Im pretty confident but even so, I know that its best to just give an armed robber whatever they want. If it was a small knife then I would just run or only attempt to disarm them if it was the last option. Its not the movies ! |
Small Is Safe
I rode from Mexico to Ushuaia on a Honda 125 (blog at www.simongandolfi.com). Had I met a bandit I would have argued that an old pensioner on a small bike wasn't worth robing - but that a rich gringo on a BIG Harley would be long in half an hour.
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Carrying a weapon is a constant, constant pain in the ass. I would also bet that if at any stage in any trip you feel that you need it , it will be locked in the hotel safe, on the bike, in the robbers hands, etc...get my point.
The chance of something happening to you is slim, and the chance of a gun getting you out of that slim situation very very slim. Orrin |
Damn. There was three days with no posts so I thought I was going to get the last word. ;-)
Loner, you're correct. There is no limit. And when I had a gun held to me in Tanzania, it was a pretty big gun. As I was driving, even if I had a gun with me, it would've had to have been VERY accessible at that very moment. And everything would've needed to work in my favor. All possible as I'm sure your training would say. As it was, since I didn't have a gun, I found a more peaceful way out of the situation. But you're correct, there must certainly be situations which you can't work your way out of, just as there are plenty that you can. It's just a matter of how you choose to make your play. I also think your idea of making a 'manual' of how to work your way out of situations without a weapon is a good one. But surely, don't they offer that in the police force? I can't believe they don't prepare you for all eventualities. Maybe they do, because you do say you need to do whatever it takes to overcome your fear. And fear is what will draw an attacker to you, as someone posted a zillion pages ago. Dogs sense fear in people and that's who they'll go for. Ditto with people-attackers. (Excluding those who are drug-induced, but maybe that's another reason for you to carry a gun?) So that brings us back to the real 'weapon' - confidence. And so I guess some people need physical weapons, others don't. And is this thread ever going to end? We certainly like hashing this one out! Lorraine |
Courtesy And A Smile
A small target is less vulnerable than a big target. I have always believed that gunmen need to be small and thin. I am reasonably large. Back in my youth and middle-age, I was shot at, bombed and straffed. Luck and speed saved me - the first man behind the biggest rock or into the deepest hole. Now I ride slowly; I ride the type of small bike that local people ride; I ride without a visor so that people can see my face; I smile and I call good-day to all and sundry. People returned my smiles and returned my greetings all the way south from Mexico to Ushuaia last year (blog at www.simongandolfi.com). The smiles came slowest in the heights of Guatemala - but they came. Most people waved. I was no threat to anyone. They saw an overweight old man with a beard riding a small bike. I stopped and they asked how far I'd come and where was I going and what did my family feel about my travels and did I have time for a cup of coffee. I would drink the coffee and answer that my wife was pleased to have me out of the house for a while and what else should an old man do, sit home and watch TV? Better to travel and meet new people and attempt to understand their lives.
I head north this year from Ushuaia to Duchess County, NY. Possibly a maniac will attack me with a machete or riddle me with a M16 or Kalashnikov. Possibly... Aged 74, there is little I can do to defend myelf and neither my Honda nor I have the speed to escape. So I will continue smiling and continue greeting people with courtesy and will continue to believe that courtesy and a smile are both the best introduction and the best defense. I believe that people are sensitive to and respond agressively to the smell of agression. I believe that carrying a gun, flexing your muscles and your combat capabilities is more apt to make you a target than to protect you. I believe is personal. What works for me - or has worked for me so far - doesn't make me right. This is merely what I believe and many readers may judge me a silly old man. |
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