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  #61  
Old 24 Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by oldbmw View Post
Sadly these days you just cannot ride a bike about the UK countryside with a rifle.
Not wanting to stray from the point...but it's pretty hard to ride a bike through the UK countryside WITHOUT a rifle these days....
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  #62  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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Seems those nasty criminals dont always register their guns
That recurring pro-gun argument just doesn't stick with me. As does the self defence argument. Off course the really motivated people will go through the trouble of getting one. But they are in the "business" of having one and are not interested in petty crime. We're talking about every Tom, Dick and Harry having one.

As for self defence, how many times has anybody been in a situation they needed a gun? Most likely events you wouldn't even see anybody coming. Bugger that one time. Who's to say I couldn't get out of it without.
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  #63  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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I wonder, who could use a gun for self defence ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss America 1944 catches would-be theives
WAYNESBURG, Ky., April 20 (UPI) -- Miss America 1944, now an 82-year-old Kentucky farmer, foiled thieves by shooting out one of their tires and holding them at gunpoint until police arrived.
"I didn't even think twice," Venus Ramey told the Cincinnati Enquirer. "I just went and did it. If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be six feet under by now."

Ramey suspects that the three men she caught have been removing old farm equipment from her shed for some time and selling it for scrap. When she finally caught someone in the act, he said he was "scrapping" and promised to leave.

Ramey, balancing on her cane, pulled out her .38 revolver.

"I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said.

Ramey, who had moved her truck to block theirs, held the three men until a passing motorist called 911 for her.

A native of Kentucky, Ramey spent her teenage years in Cincinnati and then moved east to try to get into show business. She was Miss America 1944, entering the pageant representing the District of Columbia.

She does not like to be asked if she "was" Miss America.

"I still am. You never live it down," she said before laughing. "There's only one in 1944 -- and I'm it."
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  #64  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by John Ferris View Post
I wonder, who could use a gun for self defence ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss America 1944 catches would-be theives
WAYNESBURG, Ky., April 20 (UPI) -- Miss America 1944, now an 82-year-old Kentucky farmer, foiled thieves by shooting out one of their tires and holding them at gunpoint until police arrived.
"I didn't even think twice," Venus Ramey told the Cincinnati Enquirer. "I just went and did it. If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be six feet under by now."

Ramey suspects that the three men she caught have been removing old farm equipment from her shed for some time and selling it for scrap. When she finally caught someone in the act, he said he was "scrapping" and promised to leave.

Ramey, balancing on her cane, pulled out her .38 revolver.

"I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said.

Ramey, who had moved her truck to block theirs, held the three men until a passing motorist called 911 for her.

A native of Kentucky, Ramey spent her teenage years in Cincinnati and then moved east to try to get into show business. She was Miss America 1944, entering the pageant representing the District of Columbia.

She does not like to be asked if she "was" Miss America.

"I still am. You never live it down," she said before laughing. "There's only one in 1944 -- and I'm it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

A gutsy lady for sure and if there were more people like her in this world - guns or no guns - there would be a lot less crime .

Mr tmotten said --- " As for self defence, how many times has anybody been in a situation they needed a gun? Most likely events you wouldn't even see anybody coming. Bugger that one time. Who's to say I couldn't get out of it without---- "
Well , I have found that a violent agressor can very quickly change their mind when they are looking at the business end of a 12 guage and it's awfully strange that when we had a string of burglaries in our area that my place wasn't bothered . Hummn makes you think doesn't it !
This thread has veered off course into a yank bashing session and a political soapbox for some .
So here goes :
Some people regard motorcycles with an unrational fear based on lack of understanding , as motorcyclists ,I would have thought the members of this forum could have had a more open and objective viewpoint on the subject of guns .

When I was at school we had weapons training in the cadet force and it was considered a worthy achievement to have gained a marksmanship badge and have learned the discipline involved .
Rural life has led me to regard a gun as a tool that allows me to do part of my job .A gun is a machine ,nothing more ,nothing less .
The banning of handguns in Britain has achieved nothing other than to alienate the enthusiasts of an olympic sport and has not made Britain a safer place .
Criminals have always been able to get their hands on illegal weapons .

I consider it very unwise to carry a concealed firearm outside of one's own country , however [ unlike some people here] I would not be so crass as to make snide remarks about a subject and a country and it's people that I so plainly know very little about .

Think about this for a minute ---Maybe all motorcycles should be banned because "EVERYBODY KNOWS " that they are dangerous , What's wrong with you ADV TOURING guys ? - I know YOU ,YOU are the ones that have bikes with knobbly tyres that rip up footpaths ,destroy the environment and scare small children .

And just to finish my rant : old bmw said -- " just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ?_"'
--You pull the gloves off with your teeth old boy and then instead of handing your wallet over to the poor misunderstood victims of modern society ,you give them a big surprise and ruin their whole day .
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  #65  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by tmotten View Post
That recurring pro-gun argument just doesn't stick with me. As does the self defence argument. Off course the really motivated people will go through the trouble of getting one. But they are in the "business" of having one and are not interested in petty crime. We're talking about every Tom, Dick and Harry having one.

As for self defence, how many times has anybody been in a situation they needed a gun? Most likely events you wouldn't even see anybody coming. Bugger that one time. Who's to say I couldn't get out of it without.
I spent 6 years in law enforcement and firmly believe gun control does NOT work. At one time I worked in a super max prison and one of the inmates that was locked up 23 hours a day in a single cell made a zip gun and got some 9 mm ammo and fired it at some officers. BTW guns are NOT allowed in prisons even the officers are not allowd to have them in case an inmate gets ahold of it. Now if you cant keep guns out of a high security prison, how will you keep the criminals on the street from getting them?

here are some more facts from the US. BTW contrary to populer belief you cant just walk in to a gun store and buy a gun without a background check and usually have a waiting perioud. Also regulations vary from state to state. Now saying all that the cities with the strictest gun control in the US, New York, Chicago and Washington DC all have the highest murder and violant crime rate in the US. In the 1980's Miami was number one for years, then they passed a law allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons for self defense and the very year that went into effect the crime rate plummeted.

I know and have know more police officers than I can count, and never have I met one yet that thinks gun control laws will stop crime. In fact since we deal with criminals every day we KNOW it will have the opposite effect. The latest killing in virginia, guess what it is illegal to have guns on the school grounds. It used to be legal to have a firearm on collage grounds and just down the road from where that shooting took place severl years ago some idiot showd up to massacure a bunch of people. When he started shooting a CITIZEN pulled their legal firearm and killed the want to be murder so that insted of 30 people being killed only two were shot.

Here is an idea, why not make murder illegal? Oh wait it is, and that doesnt stop the crime. Also look at how well making drugs illegal is stopping drug use.

At the end of the day people that believe gun control works are well meaning but misinformed. Saying all tha NEVER EVER take you firearms accross borders, you are asking for troubel with the law there.
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  #66  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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DODGER Wrote: "The banning of handguns in Britain has achieved nothing other than to alienate the enthusiasts of an olympic sport and has not made Britain a safer place"

I would STRONGLY disagree - gun control WORKS! We do have a growing problem with 'US style' gang shootings (yet another great American export) but the murder rate is very low compared to the US, you are still much more likely to get hit with a bottle or similar than shot!!! You can still get a gun if you have a legitimate reason (THIS INCLUDES ALL .22 CALIBRE COMPETITION WEAPONS!!!!!!). Our law does not consider a desire to shoot another human as 'legitimate', even if they are tresspassing. Farmers are allowed to shoot dogs.

Ever watched the British news? Headline national news on all 4 of our terrestrial TV channels a few days ago featured the shooting of a man in a takeaway in Leeds. He was targeted, selected and shot, presumably because he was involved in some sort of criminal activity - would a murder like this make even the Local LA news?

Sure there will still be crime if there were no guns but I would rather get hit in the face than shot - esp. if it's over a minor dispute.

It is my understanding that the US Constitution allows the bearing of arms so that citizens can rise up against an oppressive government, which would be a great use of all that domestic small arms firepower!!!

Guns don't kill people, a trigger happy, avaricous and paranoid population does - just look at Switzerland, highest level of gun ownership in Europe, lowest murder rate. All Swiss citizens are issued with a handgun by the government when they finish their military service, but they are properly trained and live in a country with good social cohesion.

I have several good American friends and am not trying to 'Yank bash', but I work with statistics and contrary to popular opinion they do not lie! You must be able to see that the gun culture is directly linked to the murder rate (NOT the availability of weapons)
I am also not a bleeding heart lefty - I own several air rifles (for using in my garden) and have access to a variety of shotguns and rifles either on farmland or my local gun club. For the hippies here I eat everything I kill so don't start.... Would never want to eat a person so won't shoot one!!

Last edited by henryuk; 26 Apr 2007 at 09:35. Reason: cock up
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  #67  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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When all is said and done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Johnson View Post
No need to be amazed - it's all about cultural differences.

In some cultures, carrying a weapon is considered common, if not normal - and when going to "dangerous places" of course you'd carry.

The question is a fair one - and the answer is simple, as is pretty clear from the posts above - NO!

Only in the US does the "average" person carry a weapon, (before an American dumps on me and says "we don't all carry guns" by average I mean just that - "average Joe" can and does carry - NOT meaning that everyone does!).

Attendance at the first International BMWMOA rally (held in Canada) was significantly down from the usual - and the message I got from their bulletin board posts was that many wouldn't go because they had to leave their guns behind - no guns allowed in Canada.

Let's keep this a fair and reasonable discussion, and allow for cultural differences - and be happy that we can discuss the differences in thinking that people around the world have - and learn about each other from the discussion - WITHOUT "dumping" on each other.

And review this post on "Guns, knives and hand grenades" (started by a Brit):

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000054.html

for more on the same subject - which seems to crop up with regularity!

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------------------------

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www.HorizonsUnlimited.com

Interesting how a question that was asked nearly two years ago has come around over and over again; it seems that it will ever be so.

The last couple of posts from the US and UK appear to encapsulate the discussions (& cultural differences identified) that have taken place here since the first post - the majority answer to the original question seems to be a resounding "no, don't do it, the juice is not worth the squeeze".

For my two pence worth, the criminals will always have the initiative over law-abiding people because they do not obey societies rules (Fortunately, they are a minority still).
That is not a reason to join them in willfully breaking local laws on possession of firearms.
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  #68  
Old 26 Apr 2007
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Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
Well , I have found that a violent agressor can very quickly change their mind when they are looking at the business end of a 12 guage and it's awfully strange that when we had a string of burglaries in our area that my place wasn't bothered . Hummn makes you think doesn't it !
Do you advertise in your street that you have one? The point is that you'd be the one looking down that 12 gauge. It's the peple that wish to commit a crime that are advantage from these gun laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
And just to finish my rant : old bmw said -- " just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ?_"'
--You pull the gloves off with your teeth old boy and then instead of handing your wallet over to the poor misunderstood victims of modern society ,you give them a big surprise and ruin their whole day .

I reckon those 20 bucks are not worth a wrecked life if they take you up on your challenge. Which in macho third world cultures is more than likely. The coppers surely wouldn't be on your side. There's an Aussie guy in Sudan now up on death row because he's held responsible for the murder (which is actually a suicide) of someone in his group. He probably didn't want to pay the extortion money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaphoto View Post
Now if you cant keep guns out of a high security prison, how will you keep the criminals on the street from getting them?
You don't, but I made this point earlier. It's the dickhead crims you have to worry about because guns are freely available in the US. Not so in the rest of the western world who have gun control measures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaphoto View Post
here are some more facts from the US. BTW contrary to populer belief you cant just walk in to a gun store and buy a gun without a background check and usually have a waiting perioud. Also regulations vary from state to state. Now saying all that the cities with the strictest gun control in the US, New York, Chicago and Washington DC all have the highest murder and violant crime rate in the US. In the 1980's Miami was number one for years, then they passed a law allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons for self defense and the very year that went into effect the crime rate plummeted.

I know and have know more police officers than I can count, and never have I met one yet that thinks gun control laws will stop crime. In fact since we deal with criminals every day we KNOW it will have the opposite effect. The latest killing in virginia, guess what it is illegal to have guns on the school grounds. It used to be legal to have a firearm on collage grounds and just down the road from where that shooting took place severl years ago some idiot showd up to massacure a bunch of people. When he started shooting a CITIZEN pulled their legal firearm and killed the want to be murder so that insted of 30 people being killed only two were shot.

Here is an idea, why not make murder illegal? Oh wait it is, and that doesn’t stop the crime. Also look at how well making drugs illegal is stopping drug use.
Those background checks didn't stop this known nut case get a few and shoot all those people. It was reported here that most gun related crimes in New York (must be state I guess) are committed with guns bought in states with relaxed gun control laws. Go figure.
In either case, if all those people in that room have guns, by the time they would have been able to draw and aim accurately enough this guy would have still taken enough people out. How many deaths are enough?

The US has the third highest gun crime rate in the world. Behind Brazil and South Africa. Interesting stat that, considering how many other countries I can think off before I get to a western country that matches that.

You can't ignore that and KNOW not having guns around reduces these stats. Australia did it and got the result. But it's like religion I guess. If it's all you've ever known, you believe it.

You can't compare this issue with an addiction to drugs though when there's desperation involved. Plus you'll find most drug mules are forced into it.
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  #69  
Old 27 Apr 2007
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Henryuk , thanks for your comments and I wholeheartedly agree with you on most points ,however the following olympic pistol disciplines are now illegal in Britain -

• 25m pistol (30+30 shots) Women
• 25m rapid fire pistol (60 shot) Men
• 50m pistol (60 shots) Men
Is Britain really a safer place because it is illegal to shoot competition pistols ?
I think not .

.22 calibre is also deadly .So in my mind the law does not make sense .

Yes I have watched the news in Britain - thousands of times .
No ,I have no idea what makes the news in LA .
Britain has always had a lower incidence of gun crime per capita than the USA perhaps for many of the reasons that you indeed illustrated and Britain has always had stricter gun ownership regulations than many of the United States .However stricter laws did not stop the Dunblane killings and ,despite further legislation since then ,there has been an increase in armed crime in Britain .So what good did it do to penalise responsible sportsmen and women ?
I have never thought much about Switzerland but I do know that many shooters from Britain have moved there to continue their sport .I believe Switzerland adopted it's unusual policy towards gun ownership as a consequence of being invaded so many times .
Perhaps there is some merit in the quiet confidence and peace of mind that is brought about by being able to defend one's self .
Certainly an enemy is far less likely to attack a nation that is prepared to defend itself.


I know enough about statistics to know that they can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to show .
Churchill once said " There are lies and there are damnable lies but the most damnable lies of all --- are statistics !" [But I believe he stole that quote from Disraeli ]
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Last edited by Dodger; 27 Apr 2007 at 06:19.
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  #70  
Old 27 Apr 2007
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Mr tmotten said " - Do you advertise in your street that you have one? The point is that you'd be the one looking down that 12 gauge. It's the peple that wish to commit a crime that are advantage from these gun laws. - "

No I don't advertise , it gets passed around by word of mouth .
No I don't live on a street , I live way out in the boonies .[unreliable phones and police many miles away ].
Yes ,it's me looking down the barrel of a shotgun because that's how you sight them on a potential target [you don't aim a shotgun ] .
What gun laws are you referring to ? What country ? You didn't include it in your question .
If you assumed that the incident occured in the USA you are mistaken.
You asked a question and I provided an answer - I am sorry if you did not like my answer.

Then tmotten went on to say :

Originally Posted by Dodger
And just to finish my rant : old bmw said -- " just how do I get the pistol out of the shoulder holster whilst wearing motorcycle gloves ?_"'
--You pull the gloves off with your teeth old boy and then instead of handing your wallet over to the poor misunderstood victims of modern society ,you give them a big surprise and ruin their whole day .
Your response was :
I reckon those 20 bucks are not worth a wrecked life if they take you up on your challenge. Which in macho third world cultures is more than likely. The coppers surely wouldn't be on your side. There's an Aussie guy in Sudan now up on death row because he's held responsible for the murder (which is actually a suicide) of someone in his group. He probably didn't want to pay the extortion money.
---------------
This was a lighthearted reply to what I thought was a lighthearted message from oldbmw .
The whole hypothetical scenario was not fully detailed by oldbmw but I am assuming he meant France ,so quite what relevence it has to some poor individual in Sudan is beyond my understanding .Do they have a death row in Sudan , if so where is it , do you have proof it was suicide ? Do you have proof that he didn't pay the extortion money ? Or are you surmising ?

Please go back and read my comments about venturing beyond one's own country with a pistol .
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Last edited by Dodger; 27 Apr 2007 at 07:20.
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  #71  
Old 27 Apr 2007
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Wow

I didn't realise we had a real-live political gun thread going on here. Way cool...

I didn't follow this thread before because I thought it dealt with carrying a weapon while on a bike trip through foreign countries, which would be just plain stupid, IMO.

Again, IMO, nothing, and I'll include sex here too, gets a man's attention faster than the sound of a pump shotgun be racked. Something like: "Sir, you now have my attention."
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  #72  
Old 27 Apr 2007
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Something to ponder

A report from the Fraser Institute , make of it what you will.
Fraser Institute - Gun Laws do Not Reduce Criminal Violence According to New Study
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Old 27 Apr 2007
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Missed the point

I have just read though this entire post. and interesting as it is it really has missed the point a lot!

Kid C. - carrying a gun while traveling
..morally right or wrong, in todays terror climate.. i think it would be next to impossible to carry any weapon (gun or knife {that you could not claim is a tool..e.g. pocket knife/multi tool) without getting caught (on an extended trip.. one or two borders maybe.. but lots..nah). And worse the penalties are getting to be just silly (death in some places.. ). As you are American (and as you can tell by the tone on many of these posts) there is a bit of Anti-American/ War machine feelings in the world, which may make YOU the target of greater searches. I travel a lot for work. As an Aussie (Which BTW we are also in the forces in Afghanistan but people forget that fact), I tend to get waved through customs with at most a quick look where as my workmate (Yank) gets searched like buggery. (And i am the rougher looking shaved headed.. skrufffy bloke one... he is kinda a geeky wimp). So I think the possibility of carrying one with out official trouble would make it not so worth it.

having said all that.. I dont really see the need as well... for any weapon to be of use in a Danger situation it needs to be easily accessible at all times..which means you have to have it in such a place that would make it easy for customs to find.. see above...

I wont get in to the moral issue about killing people or even animals.. except to say ... in my travels I have come across bears and ones with a cub... and acting submissive and walking away worked.... and never been mugged, except for the legal way.. Customs patrols...taxes.. and pulling a gun on them would not have helped

Good luck to you mate.. and keep it rubber down...
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Old 28 Apr 2007
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So do we now get a thread on how to mount the .45 next to the GPS on the BMW? Maybe Touratech could come to the party?
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  #75  
Old 28 Apr 2007
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So do we now get a thread on how to mount the .45 next to the GPS on the BMW? Maybe Touratech could come to the party?
Unlikely to be a .45 with BMW and Touratech ,far more likely to be metric !
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Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.


Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




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