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Waxed cotton - How durable?
I bought a nice waxed cotton jacket, and it is a traditional biker jacket, but it doesn't seem to be that resilient. In the event of a crash, how does it hold up? Will it and my skin be torn to shreds or is it actually a durable material?
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Waxed cotton will last you for years.
I had a "Stagg" oilskin throughout the 70's and 80's, that survived a couple of offs. If it's a new reproduction, you should have the option of adding armour and I would advise that you do so. Where did you get yours? How much? What Brand? Link? Pics? Chris. |
This Sunstuff gear sounds like a bargain compared to belstaff prices.
Hitchcocks Motorcycles -- Royal Enfield and Amal Parts and Kits (Click on the accessories catalogue/ clothing) |
Belstaff is fashion ware, I wouldn't entertain their high prices and low spec. After that you can pay what you like from £40 for an Egyptian knock off through to the stuff Hitchcocks sell. I'm using a £99 one off E-bay and am very happy.
Crash resistance wise, it isn't leather. It'll rip up just like Horrible Gherkins ****est Goretex'd nylon, so one decent slide and you'll be shopping. The only thing that in my experience survives multiple full-on offs is leather. Don't do any serious sliding and WC will last as long as leather. Andy |
Maybe it's selective memory but I do remember the couple of Belstaff waxed cotton jackets I had at the dawn of my biking career being pretty good for the purpose of keeping water out. The waxed cotton had a long life as well - certainly compared to the nylon jackets available at the time where the proofing layer would stat to peel off after a while.
Crashing in them wasn't something I did much of - a few low speed get offs but again I remember the material holding up well (I could still use the jacket afterwards). Maybe the wax acts as a lubricant as you slide along the ground! What they didn't have was the built in armour that's in just about every jacket these days, so the impact of hitting the ground still hurt. It was the wax bit that put me off eventually - everything that came in contact with them ended up covered in wax. |
Hi
I used to use a old Wax jacket I was riding a old AJS when I came off the bike riding down Tim lane in Haworth. I was doing about 30mph and the arm and shoulder worn through taking a bit of my skin with it. They look the part when riding old Bike's I would not use one again...They leak in heavy rain and I leke to use a jacket that will help keep be dry and warm and protect my Old Skin and Bone,s :rofl: Stay Safe Dazzer |
Hey, thanks for the replies.
The one I got was a Belstaff Trialmaster. Knowing it had a history with bikes, I thought it would be pretty durable but obviously it's more of a fashion brand. I probably would get something a bit tougher for any serious journeys. |
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Andy |
Belstaff do a fashionline and also a dedicated motorcycle line .
If you have the motorcycle line it will be as good ,if not better, than the old Trialmasters .Some of the new jackets have armour on the shoulders and elbows . Waxed cotton is tough but obviously not as tough as leather .You can take a few slow speed spills and it will handle that ok ,but a serious slide down the road will cause serious abrasion . Cordura nylon is tougher but the jackets always feel more bulky and awkward ,waxed cotton on the other hand seems to fit better as it ages and moulds to your body. Waxed cotton is very warm on hot days and if you are riding in very cold weather can get stiff . Waterproofing should be excellent but cheaper makes are not as well constructed as Belstaff and Barbour and may leak . A lot of people complain about the lack of armour in these jackets but then ride their bikes wearing regular jeans or trousers [ duh !!] ,but like Andy said ,you can always wear separate armour underneath the jacket if you want. After becoming a bit disillusioned with the new technojackets with their multiple liners ,million bloody useless pockets and that infuriating bastard awful velcro ,I'm beginning to like the simplicity of a jacket that doesn't make me look like a space ranger or make stupid whishing noises and has simple pockets that I can actually reach in and retrieve stuff . |
At the end of the day.it's your choice
open face helmet...full face helmet. No armour or full armour Gore -Tex or Wax cotton Leather...or cordura. After 30 plus year's of all year round riding ,I have at last found a Helmet and Clothing that meet my need's If your happy with your choice that's all that count's Stay Safe and Have fun Dazzer |
Sound words Dazzer .
Go with what suits you . Gordon May rode his Royal Enfield Bullet to India and his BSA Bantam to Egypt wearing a Barbour jacket and an open face helmet and lived to tell the tale . :funmeteryes: |
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I get a little sick of the ATTGAT crowd proselytizing, on the evils of not being covered head to toe in armour and cotton wool. That's probably a little over the top, but it seems like it is getting that way. What we have here is pure and simple social engineering, wherein one section of the community, by continually vocalising there point, and rubbishing any opposing, viewpoint are trying to homogenise the entire community into their way of thinking. The fact of the matter is that I have now ridden for over 35years with a minimum of safety gear (always a helmet, and good footwear), and have survived to tell the tale, Australia, Southeast Asia, United Kingdom, Europe, the Sub Continent and the Middle East. I've had my share of offs, and my share of injuries, and the injuries that have occoured are unlikely to have been affected by most of the modern gear available. The Cult of ATTGAT, makes a hell of a lot of money for the equipment manufacturers, and although there is no denying that riding is being made safer, it is also being made less adventurous. If I wanted to be safe, I would stay at home, I would not ride a motorcycle, nor, do any one of myriad other things that could kill or injure me. In the words of the Bard: " This above all: to thine own self be true And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!" Do what you will, figure out for yourself what is an acceptable level of risk versus reward, and leave others to make their own decisions. "Most humbly do I take my leave, my lord". Christo. |
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Andy |
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Just stop crashing, you'll be fine. :biggrin3: |
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That's just my philosphy though haha. |
Great rant Stormboy! Couldn't agree more. Having said that, around here in the U.S.A. I'm often the most geared up. Harley folks are the majority and they mainly wear jeans, a T shirt, and a pudding bowl helmet even if they're off across the country.
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Mate, amongst the people that I usually ride with I am probably a little more gear conscious than they are too.
My contention is not that safety gear should not be worn, nor is it that people should stop promoting it. The point is that some people carry things to extremes, it's all about balance, there was a previous post in this thread in which the respondent alluded to the fact that MC racers wear ATGATT, but that their time in the saddle is limited compared to the ADV/LDR section of the riding community. It was a point well made. The best piece of safety gear that I have personally ever owned is a fully functioning brain, if I am comfortable, not hot/cold, not uncomfortable or restricted I can make better riding decisions and provide better riding input. I, as do most have a predetermined acceptable level of risk, and it is higher than some, lower than others, and it has been determined by me over 39 years behind the bars, the observations and evidence are all anecdotal, and that is acceptable to my mind, for me. Wear whatever you want, be a safe rider, listen to the wee small voices, and let people make their own decisions without the browbeating. That was the point of my rant, (written as it was after a week worth of nightshift I might add). Chris. |
One for sale on ebay number 320579714655
end's this sunday |
I was actually thinking about getting a waxed cotton jacket, too. Not necessarily Belstaff, there's a bunch of other waxed cotton jackets available that are not ricidulously overpriced. I'm guessing that's because of Belstaff's LWR/LWD affiliation.
I'm wondering though not only how durable they are but also what their (dis)advantages are? Like do you boil inside when it gets hot? How waterproof are they really? What about funky smell after several hot days in the saddle? Are they easy to wash (aka do they have to be hand-washed or machine-washed, do they need special detergent, etc.) and how long do they dry? I'm currently using a Pharao textile jacket that I really like - it has several big pockets, it's comfortable albeit quite heavy, but it's neither waterproof nor usable when it gets really hot due to lack of vents. |
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On very hot days you will find a waxed cotton jacket very warm ,they are usually black and will soak up the sun and they don't have much ventilation . You can leave the cuffs open and partially open the zip to get some air in them .But on a 20c day they will be comfortable when you are moving on the bike , I find textile jackets warm too if they don't have ventilation flaps as well ,so not much difference really. Hand wash only in mild soapy warm water , definitely no hot machine washing ! They usually don't have much of a lining so they dry fairly quickly ,--overnight maybe ? I can't remember washing mine ,I just leave it out in the rain and the mud rinses off . They are waterproof if you look after them and reproof them occasionally . If you decide to buy a cheaper one ,have a hard look at the quality of the manufacturing .See previous posts about the Vincent jacket . Stitching may not be up to the standard of Belstaff or Barbour and the fit may not be correct for riding on a motorcycle . I've picked up nearly new Barbour Internationals on eBay for 50 pounds ,so they don't have to be expensive . Waxed cotton is a natural product and is not as convenient as modern textiles as regards washing etc . Funky smell ? Never noticed , buy a large size that will allow you to wear several layers underneath and wash the under layers ,not the jacket . If you put the jacket away wet it may get mouldy , but then so would any other kind of jacket . You either love 'em or you hate 'em . |
Thank you Dodger. What do you use to reproof them? I'd guess some sort of wax but that'd be too easy.
I've actually taken a look at the Barbour jackets. They look pretty decent but also pretty expensive. Haven't found out where to get them in Germany though, I'd like to try one on first. |
You can buy tins of wax from Belstaff ,Barbour and others.
Spray or brush on . |
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But as you yourself say, they are very hot, clammy, very difficult to clean/wash, poorly lined, and are best left out in the rain. You also say they are inconvenient, smelly and mouldy. Expensive too. We know that lumps of the wax grease go onto other peoples clothes unfortunately, especially in hot weather. It doesnt totally add up to a great product, does it? But great in its time. I dont think they have even basic crash protection. They look good though, at vintage rallies etc:cool4:. |
The Drizabone factory outlet is only a few K's from home, I'm going down there soon, to check these out.
[url=http://www.drizabone.com.au/store.asp?pr=15&ban=M&store=Mens-p-1-c-1250]Driza-Bone |
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Thanks Dod for the pics; yes, spot on - the McQueen pic is old enough to be in black and white, giving the authentic vintage look. That jacket looks perfect.
The colour pic is of an ancient Enfield (55years old:thumbup1:) on a great trip (I must get that book) , so Gordon May dresses to suit the bike. As I said, and I think you agree, it's perfect for the time. So wax up!:mchappy: |
It certainly looks good. Thanks for the pics Dodger, and the explanation, too. I'll keep my current jacket until at least February and see if I can find a decent jacket at IMOT, a huge motorcycle and equipment trade show in town. I'll need riding pants too, since my old ones have magically shrunk for no obvious reason :innocent:
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It's all about the tear resistance...
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When contemplating how well a garment will keep your skin intact the most important factor to consider is the tear resistance. I don't have the numbers for the tear resistance of "waxed cotton" but, denim jeans are cotton and while i'd expect a cotton motorcycle jacket to have a higher tear resistance than jeans it's not going to be significantly higher because it's still the same material and one that's really not designed for that application. Additionally, with the heat that is imparted from even a quick slide on the road I'd expect the wax to melt instantaneously and thus provide no real additional help, so you're essentially talking about slightly thicker cotton. Related anecdote: I watched my girlfriend lowside on asphalt at about 25 mph. She hit and immediately started rolling I didn't see her sliding at all. Her 500 dennier cordura has non-trivial melting on the side of the arm near the bicep. Do NOT underestimate how quickly friction is converted into heat energy. From the section on garment materials in a post I did a while ago ( So you want to ride a motorcycle… and not die | weblog.masukomi.org ) Quote:
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An excellent and thoughtful post, thanks.
The evidence shows that waxed cotton is no good at all for bike riding. It was designed in the 19th century for fishermen in the North Sea, and to use it in the 21st century when riding is just plain :thumbdown:. Even those who like the "old look" admit that it's rubbish. |
Nice photo of Mr McQeen, I have a similar one and several others given to me by Roy Peplow, a member of the Triumph "A" team in that years event.
I was in a rather trendy bar in Harrogate last night. A significant percentage of the assembled trendy types were wearing Belstaff jackets. There were no motorcycles parked outside. Today I was in Manchester to visit the Dainese shop, bought only a t-shirt there but not far away I was surprised to find Belstaff's flagship store. While the wife spent the housekeeping money, I had a good look 'round at all the stuff including the Icon jacket, a replica of Steve McQueens, and I can honestly say that, although expensive, it is all top quality stuff and very well made. No pockets for body armour though so probably best kept for pottering around on an old trials Cub or leaning against the trendiest of bars. |
Jackets with armour for those who are interested .
Classic Tourist Trophy Jacket - British Motorcycle Gear Falstaff Motorcycle Jacket :: Aerostich/RiderWearHouse Motorcycle Jackets, Suits, Clothing, & Gear |
If you like the style of the waxed cotton, you can always have one in leather, I have!
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Nice jacket Dave !
[Lewis Leathers by any chance ?] |
Dave,that is a really nice jacket,the only problem for me is the cost:eek3:
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I wore a Drizabone all last winter and a Belstaff copy over the summer. They are truely waterproof (probably a factor of the collar and cuff design as much as anything) and need a few hours work per year (usual bikers fiddle factor at work here IMHO, too many owners like getting the wax out, which at least makes a change from adjusting their valves twice a week). I've had no problem with grease/marks/smells (use spray on proofing not wax in a tin). I don't find the Belstaff too hot in a UK summer and in a German or Scandanavian winter the Drizabone was a great top layer. I don't limit my thinking on safety to armour (only works after the event), so while this is a factor it doesn't put me off. Certainly for sidecar use the advantges outweigh the problems. Durability I don't really know about. Last jacket I fell off in was nylon/Goretex and was trashed but did it's job. I'm still using the remains of my last Goretex and nylon jacket for the odd trip to the shops/work. The fact it leaks where the velcro (nasty old 1960's technology) doesn't work or the outer is dirty, or some badly glued on bit (horrible old 1990's technology) has dropped off puts me off 2 year old £400 jackets. My Drizabone was second hand 3 years ago and is still perfect, the Belstaff copy perfect at just over a year (and only cost £99). For a two month trip round Europe I'd take the wax cotton. For longer and hotter it could be a tougher decision. I think I might go leather and put the cash into decent zips (sorry Cam, I know these are 1920's). It would take a lot to get me back in the Horrible Gherkin shop. Andy |
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Even Dod who is a fan of waxed cotton lists a lot of things that are wrong with this material for biking. You don't comment on all that, unfortunately. But if you like such stuff well why not - but that's different from saying it's good. I used waxed cotton for bike and deerstalking and it was clear that others with simple PVC clothing fared much better at a fraction of the cost. My new waxed cotton jacket was ready for the bin after 12 weeks use at deerstalking. The limited waterproofing came with a penalty -the fabric got a stiff as a board and weighed a lot more too. The fabric then developed holes where creases were. That's in addition to the list of other problems for bikers. Then the Hooray Henrys started using it. It seems this fashion has returned, and it can be seen in bars as one post showed. Just because a product is old doesn't mean it's good, unless nostalgia confuses your opinions. If you don't like zips and don't like velcro etc, then yes waxed cotton has a place. You're right about one thing though - the prices charged for many modern jackets etc is horrific, and a ripoff, especially as many are made cheaply in Asia. £400 for a jacket? Tho' a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket cant be far away from that. Am I wrong in thinking that Drizabone makes those big long coats that reach to your boots? Maybe fine on an outfit, but not solo? How do you feel about pudding basin helmets? |
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On back protection; when I read that most biking back injuries are caused by a torsional movement and not by impact, I used a bit of camping mat rather than those bulky, hot standard protectors. |
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Yes Dodge, its Lewis leathers, I had seen the LL advert on the back of a friends M/C mag in the October, and loved this particular jacket, but as said, 'the cost'. Then, I went through all the reasons to justify paying that much, but struggled! It was not until the early January after I had worked many hours over the Christmas and New Year that I decided that it would be 'my' Christmas present to myself!
The Pros I figured; Apart from loss or theft, it will see me out the rest of my days. Should I lose or gain weight drastically :eek3: .LL will alter accordingly. How many £'s have I spent/wasted on Wax/kevlar/cordura etc over the last how many years? Lewis Leathers service is first class, I did initially have a stitching problem on one of the pockets but after a phone call, they admitted I was not the first with this, and recalled the jacket for re-stitch and rivets added. The cons; Heavy, and being leather you don't really want too many soakings but has so far not 'leaked'. not yet been used in 'high temps' and not looking forward to that. and whilst after 2years the quality is so good it is really taking time to 'break-in' and you can look like an extra from the Village people:helpsmilie: |
Lewis Leathers is good stuff.
My brother wears my old Belstaff bike jacket that is 30 yearsold .:D Barbour have been making the International jacket [ IN ENGLAND ]for 75 years ,they must be doing something right .:thumbup1: Barbours always look better when they have a few years patina . I prefer natural material to synthetic and don't mind putting up with a bit of inconvenience [ if reproofing every couple of years can be considered inconvenient]. I have bought 3 textile jackets [First gear ,Santiago and Belstaff Discovery ]in the last few years and been disapointed in all of them ,only one ,the Belstaff , comes close to what I expect from a jacket but even that has too many useless pockets and velcro.A Barbour jacket is cheaper than any of them . If there is a good ,simple, textile jacket out there [with a waterproof OUTER layer ] ,I'd like to hear about it . As regards abrasion resistance ,it's obvious that waxed cotton will never be as good as leather .But I do have experience of sliding down the road on my back after coming a cropper at something above 60 mph ,I was wearing a Belstaff and jeans ,the jean's back pocket wore through and the Belstaff had scratch marks ,I guess I was lucky .Personally ,these days, I'm more concerned about the initial contact with terra firma and I'd like to see Barbour make an armoured bike jacket like Belstaff ,I'd buy one for sure . Maybe my son has the right idea , he wears a tight fitting armoured leather jacket and ,when it rains , wears my Barbour over the top of it .[ no wonder I can never find it !doh] Whatever you choose ride safe.:mchappy: |
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(Now this bit about cows etc is quite right - but nothing to do with m/cycling . It's for farmers and others, but not, please, m/cyclists.) |
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P.S.: Love my clown suit :thumbup1: |
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It's actually the same with the suit of armour you mention. Good early renaissance steel armour is shaped to deflect to sword strikes and with the layers underneath would stop small bullets (which is why the military use 3/4-inch musket balls for years). If you want something to save you in a hacking battle it's as good as kevlar. The reason it wasn't used for four hundred years is the cost of equipping enough people with it to make it effective. Knight versus archer is cash versus training. Knight versus musketeer is quality versus quantity, you can train a peasant to shoot faster than you can make the armour. Put some dodgy undersize actor in the armour without the leather and wool underneath and it ceases to function properly too :rofl:. IMHO, Goretex bike gear is still at the red coat and needing four hands to carry your hat, pack and musket stage, not kevlar and ceramic plates. Andy |
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"Anti BMW? Who me?" :rolleyes2:.... you have often referred to BMW clown suits. By all means criticise the gear, but don't call HU people "clowns" because they buy gear you don't like. Please? |
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Be careful there with a BMW and if you wear a BMW jacket!:scooter: |
You've heard deers talking ????? What were they saying ? "that clown in the Barbour jacket thinks I hav'nt seen him"
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Andy |
Mr C and Mr D
Hi Caminando, hi Dodger
Would it be ok if you took your personal semantic wildfowl/clownsuit BMW lovers/haters/whatever debate offline? It would IMHO assist the reading of this thread to not have to train the brain to zone out the pointless and petty hot air. It's not the first time. I can see this developing into yet another flame war. Thanks Chris PS Are wax cotton jackets fire retardent? |
:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: I was flagging myself and about to throw in the towel.
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The bloke from Triumph who put the exhaust so close to the chain better hope I'm in a good mood if we ever meet :thumbdown:. Andy |
Vanson , a US company that makes quality gear ,has a waxed cotton jacket .
From the photos ,I like the look of it ,it has pockets with rounded corners which won't wear out or fray. But no belt , so maybe it's just another fashion item , ! SF - Vanson for Epaulet "Triton Waxed" Jacket - Style Forum |
Wax cotton
Claymore jackets........
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I have never worn armour and prefer a helmet with a peak to keep the sun out of my eyes. Do wear strong boots and gloves. |
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