Flip front helmets - ???
 

Having just come back from Lumb Farm, and having heard a number of different people say that flip top helmets make you appear far friendlier (a bonus at borders), I thought I might buy one. I quite like the Shoei Multitech (the price doesn't worry me too much, especially as I'll possibly sell my old one on ebay); does anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance. ?c?

You'l be taking your helmet off at borders so I don't understand that one.. It's just being rude to leave it on and probably way too hot way !!

It is handy to flip it up at petrol stations or talking to your riding buddies etc.

There will always be a compromise in the strength of the front section as opened to a one piece closed face helmet though, no matter what anyone else tells you... It's impossible for a moving part/latch to be as strong as one solid bar.

it's only impossible if they are made of the same thickness and type of materials. however, it's quite possible for both types to far exceed any sort of impact you'll come across by riding a sub 150 mph motorbike.

in addition, the moving part/latch is not taking any impact, or in the direction of any stresses.

it's just rumour and myth that a flip-front is not as strong as a full bucket-type; for any type of motorcycling incident that we are likely to experience while travelling.

the major downside with them is that you often ride with it 'up', because it feels better. when doing this you just have to remember not to crash.

An open face helmet is far less intimidating to anyone you talk to than a full face one, be it Officials, Fuel stations and people in general. Even more intimidating can be some flip front helmets by adding a protuberance several inches above your head.
Less intimidating = better response and assistance.

I use a BMW System 5 helmet and removed the chin guard section and put on the side 'trim' bits, once I had done the long days/weeks of 'main road' sections. But the visor only really covered my eyes leaving the rest of my face exposed to Colebatch's dirt and dust!

Even better, the BMW dealer in Krasnoyarsk had a deeper visor that covered the entire face. I've not seen it in other counrties. It worked fine for over 3 months, then I put the chin guard piece back on for the return to civilisation - and a real need for safety!

There's a million variables in any crash so odds are pretty incalculable..Speed, type of riding doesn't really come into it.. You can get hit by a car sitting at the lights on a scooter... There isn't an engineer in the world that will tell you a break in the structure is as strong as a solid item..

Yes, there are LOTS of materials, designs etc but it's no myth and no helmet manufacturer will put that it's "as strong" in writing, or you could be sure they would market it that way...

Anyway, going :offtopic: here !!


Sorry :(

yeah, they are though. flip-ups are the same 'safety' spec as full-facers. the shoei multitech (the lid in question) is tested in the closed position and gets the gold standard. exactly the same standard as your full face lid. the multitech is not gold standard rated when in the 'up' position.

who cares what manufacturers put in writing ? manufacturers are hardly organisations to be believed.. it's definitely a myth that flip-ups are less protective than full-facers in a crash. as you say, that's such a blanket statement so as to be pointless. so why say it ?

if you're going to go with 'what people say', then why do UK cops (known for their love of security standards) use flip-up lids; if they are so poor ?

as I say, the only measurement we have are the standards that helmets are put through. flip-ups (in the closed position) and full-facers meet the same standards.

absolutely, technically, a flip-up chin bar is not as strong as a full-face chin bar (what about the rest of the lid ?), taken to an absurd limit. but, it's definitely more than strong enough for you and me.

Quote:
it's just rumour and myth that a flip-front is not as strong as a full bucket-type; for any type of motorcycling incident that we are likely to experience while travelling.

I know a paramedic who would seriously disagree with you there!

Quote:
if you're going to go with 'what people say', then why do UK cops (known for their love of security standards) use flip-up lids; if they are so poor ?

Police wear them so they don't have to keep taking off their lid when talking to motorists.

Quote:
as I say, the only measurement we have are the standards that helmets are put through. flip-ups (in the closed position) and full-facers meet the same standards.

Currently, the DOT standard does not require chin bar testing.


Despite this, I've worn em for years.
Dave.

yeah, we all know a paramedic with horror stories. I know one that has horror stories about alcohol consumption, but I still drink.

I just think it's got to be put into perspective. Fine if some people are a bit paranoid about safety and won't use a flip-up for personal reasons. but, come on, the benefits far outweigh the risks for most of us mere mortals.

Personally and thats all I can speak of/from, I would not wear one. Much like others have said I fail to see how they could be as strong or as durable in a crash.

• I probably would listen more to the people that make helmets rather than standards results for a number or reasons.
• Standards do change and in the most case only get tougher.
• Helmet A & B both pass but does that mean they both passed by the same amount and just as safe. Some helmets pass and others far exceed the "standard" during testing.

I would not wear one because I am about reducing the possibilities for injury and the "benefits" that they may bring don't outweigh that for me.

I was only talking about the chin bar...... Not the rest of the lid !!

Now I'm sure that a chin bar on a £500 flip helmet is as good or even better than on a £60 "one piece" helmet, but once you get into quality lids, that's simply not the case...

I never said don't buy one or don't wear one.. Just that it's something to be considered.

The chances of it making a difference are of course, impossible to calculate but if I'm flying over the front of my handlebars after hitting a car (like I have done), I'd prefer my chin to protected by a solid steel bar rather than a couple of plastic clips or a few 6mm screws.

You'l never see any racer in street biking/MX/Enduro wearing a flip ( they could talk to the camera men and their crew easier)... The only exception is that the "Trails" guys wear open face but they only hop up and down sewer pipes !

Personal preference isn't it ! Anyway, this isn't what the OP was asking ! Someone advise him on a nice flip lid :smartass:

Why would you think that? Twenty years in engineering sales here, 15 of them in automotive stuff. Price and cost are completely unrelated. The £60 lid is £60 because the fine for not wearing one in Italy is close to that price and there isn't really that much else going for that brand. The £500 one includes some extra costs related to graphics and advertising but after that it's simply that the market associates price with safety and branding.

The only fact is that both passed the same very basic test which proves they won't make a crash worse. Beyond that there is no evidence.

Andy

I am not to sure about that. I think there is a huge difference between a Aldi special and a top of the line Shoei or Arai. As I said before some "pass" a test and other far exceed a test. That (although i don't agree with all their findings) was shown in the helmet tests in the UK in the last couple of years. Sharp tests ? can't remember the name..

BACK ON BLOODY TRACK!!!

I have a Nolan N103 flip front helmet, and recommend it to anyone who isn't on a sports bike. The only reason I say it's not good for those is that the top of the visor opening is a little too low, and when I crane my neck to the position required on my sports bike, I can't see far enough up the road...

So, for everything else I think it's perfect.

When the sun come out the internal visor flips down, so no need to wear sunglasses unless its mega bright.

On fast road sections and in the rain you have the front down so you get full wind / rain protection.

Off road you flip the front up and have a totally clear view of the road ahead / your bike - not even a chin bar in the way.

It has a pinlock visor, so absolutely doesn't mist up.

It has speaker cut-outs moulded in so fitting an auto-com is easy. It even has provision for Nolan's Bluetooth headset system (if you justify the cost).

Only two drawbacks in my opinion are:

1. The weight - it is slightly heavier than a similar full face since the hinge adds weight.

2. It's a bit noisier than a full face because the hinge mechanism add width.

A final plus for the Nolan in particular though, is the design of the hinge: it uses a 'rotating cam' design, which means the chinbar ends up very snug to the top of the helmet, not waving 6 inches above in the breeze once it's opened.

PERSONALLY, I rate it above the Multitech since it is cheaper, has an internal visor, and the clever hinge design.




Any one else got endorements of their flip fronts? (And not you opinion of whether they're safe or not!!)

:stormy:

:taz:

Shuberth Concept: Overweight, doesn't age well (linings worn through), overpriced.

Roof Boxer: Not a true flip front, just a styled visor on an open face. Plastic and press stud fasteners fail.

+1 on the Nolan my dad rates his.

Andy

Thank you for the replies so far. Whilst I'm interested in the broader take people have taken for this thread (and I'm finding it interesting), I would also appreciate comments on my original question please! The Nolan sounds interesting; I've looked at the Schuberth C3 as well, which is supposed to be quieter (but looks quite scary when the front is down!). At the moment, my first thought is the Shoei, but I'm looking for further suggestions . . . . .:D

I might have been one of the people that Endurodude referred to as I mentioned this in my session on Morocco.

In the winter time I use a BMW System V flip top. As I enter villages and towns I normally raise the top so I don't look like a Darth Vader character. With a fliptop I can easily eat and drink on the move (with some helmets it's almost impossible to get a hydration tube through).

With a standard helmet the only way to get some air in is to raise the visor, but I don't want to do this as I get wind in my eyes. So in summer time I remove the chin bar and short visor and stick on the convertors to make it into an open face (or what BMW calls a Jet Helmet) with the longer visor. This way I get lots of air in but with the visor still in place.

I looked at the BMW System VI helmet which has a nice sunshade pull down but it doesn't covert into an open face so that's a no-no for me.

The only thing I would really like is a sunshade for when I'm riding into the setting sun. It seems I am always riding west in the evening!

Thanks for the suggestion, Tim. Unfortunately, I was at work when you spoke about Morocco; I was gutted, as I REALLY want to go next year, and it would have been really useful. I've had a look at the BMW system 6, but I might check out the 5.

Nolan N 43 Air
 

Not a flip, but I have a Nolan N43 Air for the summer holiday trip. Technically it's a Jet helmet, but has the ability to "morph" into a full face (for wind and rain protection). Wore it down through Spain last year and the features were superb. Excellent ventilation and has a drop down dark visor too. Could be worth a look. Can have bluetooth N-Com retro fitted too.

As for protection, best stay between the hedges, I say...

I have an AGV Miglia that served me well on my RTW ride, 10 months of near-daily use. Air flow through the vents isn't so great, but all of the mechanical parts held up fine.

Just to stir things a bit I wear open face helmets all the time - personal choice - and yes I know if i hit the ground with me face its going to be messy - but I will take that risk and have done for a huge amount of miles over the last 30 odd years. But my point was about helmet safety standards and my current open face an Arai - has a gold sticker meaning it passes some crap bench test but offers no facial protection, my main helmet for travelling over the last 10 years was a schuberth jet with chin bar long visor and sun visor - it had a gold star badge as well. As for full face ask a paramedic about other injuries related to them - often serious neck fractures if the jaw hits the ground, or worse people pulling them off to get at an unconcious riders face causing lots of damage to heads brains ( a very good friend of mine was killed this way by the driver of the car he collided with) So like Dougie said lots of people have a story. If you want my two pennies worth - flip fronts can be heavy, rattly (unless your forking out a fortune) - if it was me I would say ride a bit slower take in the scenery and wear an open face lid - but to be honest its not me its your head go what your comfortable with - but as for border crossings as has been said above somewhere take your hat off cos its unlikely you will be crossing unless you do..

Adventure950, you're not the only one who wears an open face.

Yes, yes, I know it has nowhere near the same safety value as a full-face, but the fact is that if I really want to be safe I should sell my motorcycle and go buy a Volvo.

I have just bought a Caberg Konda. Cheap at 99 of your English pounds, but has a 5 star Sharp rating. What else do we have to go on?

Apparently noisy, but I haven't used it, just hide it in the garage. I normally buy black helmets so our lass doesn't notice a new one. This one is silver, but was reduced, so it had to be mine.

Seems pretty reasonable quality to me. Comfortable. Definitely slightly heavier, but not by much.

Nobody so far has mentioned how utterly uncool they are! But very very practical.

If I could afford it I would have got a Shoei.

Clive

Funny that - I do have a Volvo !

What I wan is a helmet with an external sunshade.
I used to have an open face helmet with one but bought a new helmet some 2-3 years ago that has a screen in front. It is great unless its a sunny day and you are not facing away from the sun.
Anyone got suggestion..?

As for Volvos. the most scary car I ever had was a volvo 740 estate. was too scary for me, so I sold it and bought a Citroen XM estate which was a delight to own.
The Volvo had an engine management system that was programmed to shut down the engine whenever it detected any error. Usually this was inconvenient, but having been parked twice about 4 or 5 lanes into the M5/M6 interchange it just got too exciting for me.

I will stick to using open face helmets until I can find a flip up that has a sun shade.

Do you mean a peak like on a motorcross helmet?

Nolan did a flip front with an external sun visor a while ago. Didn't catch on...

have had Nolan 102 (absolutely hated it)
currently have scorpion, cut outs for speakers etc, internal sun visor and not overly expensive at £250 ish

wouldn't use anything but a flip front now, really useful for eating & drinking while on the move when doing iron butt runs (100mls a day)

Steve

With helmets, fit is everything so if one type doesn't fit right, no matter how much you like it, it won't be as comfy or safe.

I used to have full face helmets all the time, then off road helmet and goggles as well. The plastic chin piece isn't protective past mud and the odd stone.

I have a Nolan 102 I bought several years ago for £250 which has been good, slightly heavier than standard and the dark visor was outside the clear one so they both got dirty! The 103 is inside so much better design. It feels sturdy, comfortable (for me) and the pinlock is brilliant in damp, cold weather. It never fogs. I found the visor opening slightly restrictive on side views. The button to raise the front is brilliant and can't be done by accident but uses one hand.

I also have a Lidls flip front (£39.99) which is the same helmet as Viper sell but without the bluetooth. It fits me better but that is down to head shape. It has better side visibility, the dark visor is on the inside and can be used with the front up, though it's not rated for riding like this. Its a bit more difficult to raise the front as it's only one recessed button. Its a little noisier than 'normal' full face. For the price I also got extra pads and baffles and a spare visor!

I'd like to try the Shark Evoline as the front goes right over out of the way and you can still use the visor and it's safety checked as both full and open face. If it fits well it could be good.

I also have a Davida open face which is very comfy leather interior and very quiet. I think it looks cool in Union Flag colours, too. I'm preferring it more and more :)

I hope that helps you :)

On safety (and as a mechanical engineer), I can see no reason why a properly designed flip front doesn't give as much protection as a full face.

Yes, a peak

Schuberth C3 Motorcycle Helmets. Sound Distribution - UK supplier of Schuberth motorcycle helmets

Wow - a simple question is asked about fliptop lids one day ago and it gets dozens of replies. What a hot topic.

I did a presentation at Ripley and strongly suggested a flip top lid. It IS much more friendly at police check points and just in general. I have a Shoei multitech (Silver) and think they are great.

I also suggested people think about getting a shaded visor. I find it much easier than sunglasses.

I didn't realise I'd started such a hotbed of discussion! I think I saw your talk, that's what prompted me to ask! I like the Schuberth C3 currently . . . the quest continues!

I have only had one experience with flip - ups, fortunately I was not wearing the helmet at the time but it was sufficient to put me off them for life.

Fellow rider in our group had a head-on collision with an oncoming vehicle, the helmet was externally undamaged but the locking mechanism jammed as a result of him hitting the road hard. Due to the shape of the helmet chin piece the helmet could not be removed without flipping it up - this was a major problem as the rider was drowning in his own blood inside the helmet.

Fortunately the ambulance officers arrived in time and used their portabel angle grinder to cut the helmet off. The rider survived but alas, 5 years later he still suffers from brain damage.

If you do choose to purchase a flip-up, please make sure you can put it on, and take it off, without first flipping it.

Caberg Trip Shark Evoline
 

I wear glasses and cannot find a full face helmet that will allow me to wear glasses in comfort. I gave up biking for years until I discovered flip fronts. Basically the hole in a full face is not big enough for me to push a pair of glasses through and over my ears. I have two flip fronts.

I bought the Caberg trip and for the price (90 pounds) it is a reasonable helmet, a bit noisier than a full face and you cannot really ride along with the chin bar up at any rate of knots without the drag on the upturned flip trying to rip your head off.

The Shark Evoline is different. The flip goes all the way over the back of the helmet and is aerodynamically shaped to provide no drag whatsoever. It is just like using a jet helmet and very comfortable with the face bar up or down. The only thing is the initial price 270 pounds with a replacement visor being almost 50 pounds. It is more comfortable and quieter than the trip.

I have never given the safety issue any thought as for me at least it was either an open face or a flip top and I reckon the flip top is safer and better in bad weather than a jet helmet.

I hope this helps
GM

Endurodude - Do you plan to use it off-road much?

I left home on my RTW trip in 2006 wearing an Arai Tour-X. I loved that helmet and wore it for the next 4 years. Eventually the cheekpads were threadbare and I'd sewn-up the lining around the base of the helmet so many times that there wasn't much left to sew.

I could see all the benefits of a flip-front mentioned previously in this thread plus the ability to use my DSLR camera without removing my crashelmet.

In March 2010 I bought a Shoei Multitec in the USA and enjoyed all the benefits mentioned. However, what I hadn't realised was just what big a difference having a peak makes when riding off-road. Especially when riding into the sun late in the day (just put your hand in front of your face to mimic a peak and you'll see what I mean). I tried putting a few strips of tape across the top of the visor, it helped a bit but fell far short of being a fix.
I just couldn't read the surface ahead of me properly and it wasn't just a problem when off-road. The visor got scratched from constant dust/cleaning and so riding into the sun caused a kind of 'starburst' effect that also restricted my vision. With a peak I could dip my head just enough to keep the sun off the visor, prevent the 'starburst' effect and and so maintain good vision.
When I visited the UK in April for my best mates wedding I dug out my old Arai, ordered a new visor and cheekpads, sewed-up the lining again and have been very happily and safely riding with it since. (Even if my ears do get red raw from taking it on/off to take photos on beautiful roads)

My Shoei is a very good helmet that I will use again but I find the Arai more suitable for my current trip.

Had your username not suggested off-road riding I probably wouldn't have made this post but I am really glad I swapped back.

Adam

We have shark Evoline 2 and love them. Has built in sun visor (top gun style) and fits with shark tooth com system which works very well. sara

Good point made above that I'd forgotten about. It might sound unimportant but it isn't. When you're on a big trip you will, for ever, be wanting to stop and take a photo. Some of my best photos were taken by just stopping the bike (not even getting off), flipping the lid up and taking the shot with my SLR. If you need to look through an eye piece to take a photo a flip top is ideal.

Interesting !! Although, I think that's a case of sponsorship and pocketing fat wedges of cash to promote something you might not really chose to use yourself...

JediMaster - I would like to ride off road; The username is an aspirational one! I'm getting into this travelling life slowly. I have big future plans . . . .

I don't think I'll ever be as hard core as Dave Lomax appears to be (having heard him speak at the HU meet), but I will do some in the future in my own way.

I like the idea of the internal visor - I'm giving the C3 serious though. I need to try to remove the small amount of leather, though (see HU meet post!).

+100

At the end of the day, if you hit your head hard enough, with or without helmet, you are going to snap your neck. Arguing about how much impact strength it takes to break a detachable chin bar is very much a moot point. Any impact to the front of your helmet strong enough to do that will break your neck many times over, and quite possibly detach your head.

My take on it is: You can have the toughest helmet in the world, you can build a bulletproof helmet, your head could be 100% inviolable, but your neck will be snapped long before then anyway, so realistically, there is a limit to how much protection is actually logical. The weakest point simply moves from the head to the neck, or to the back or any number of other places that a human beings life depends on.

Getting back to the OP's topic ... its not a flip front, but it is the most configurable helmet on the market ... 7 helmets in one ... to my mind, thats pretty damn handy for motorcycle travel. HJC IS Multi:

http://images.esellerpro.com/2189/I/...t-Silver-1.jpg

That seems to be EXACTLY what I need :)

Thanks colebatch

That's an interesting point of view ,you've obviously given this matter a lot of thought .
:innocent:

Not at all.... As i'm sure you can tell :innocent:

I'm considering a flip front for my next helmet, but mainly for my own convenience in putting it on and off, taking photos, getting a drink, and putting on sunglasses. Here in the USA I can't say that any ordinary citizen seems intimidated in the least by my full-coverage helmet, and there aren't border crossings to worry about unless you go to Canada or Mexico. In any case, my major concern is that we have to basically take the manufacturer's assurances at face value (get it?) that the chin bar mechanism won't give way in an accident. I have read enough reports of just that happening to make me wary. It is pretty common to fall on your face in an accident, so the chin bar is extremely important. Also, some magazine tests found plastic parts holding down the chin bars on some helmets. So how do you know which ones are strong enough?

I kinda disagree on that one. I think its extremely rare to fall on your face. Your face is the number one thing you automatically protect as your most basic reflex. I ride a lot of off road, mostly with an open face helmet and sunglasses. I have come off a hell of a lot of times, and think I can only recall a single time where the helmet has even contacted the ground at all ... and that was the back of the helmet. I have grazed a lot of jacket elbows, hurt elbows, wrists, shoulders ... all as part of the automatic reflex to protect the face. But the face has never been even close to impact. If you look at moto GP guys, who routinely come off the bike with incredible regularity, I cant recall ever seeing a guy come off a bike and impact the ground with the front of his helmet - because every reflex in a rider kicks in to protect his/her face.

I am not saying it doesnt happen, and I am not saying people who want to protect the front of their head at all costs should or shouldnt do so - thats a personal call - but in terms of falling off a bike, a head impact will only occur in a very small percentage of those "offs". And as a percentage of head impacts, frontal impacts will be a very low percentage of those.

and even better, as they are not particularly expensive :)

According to the old Hurt Report, 35% of helmet impacts occur in the chin area. Here is one discussion of this. So, if you do hit your head, you are likely to hit on the chin.

Have a look at the Caberg Justio GT or many of the Caberg's then if worried go to Sharp Test SHARP Helmets - THE HELMET SAFETY SCHEME & take it with a pinch of salt as some will say it is no good others use it as a guideline only, Pays your ££ make your choice.

I have the multitec Shoei and been in an accident where a 2 ton SUV skoda drove over me with me being stuck under it. Result separated shoulder, head injuries none, not even a headache (only some freaky morphine dreams in ICU).

So I bought a new one (white this time instead of silver as I found a promo for 30% off :))

This was on normal EU roads so no offroading or touring on long slow roads.

Going to have a look at the HCJ IS... I didn't see any reference to pin lock stuff... How do you deal with ice forming in the winter?

Carberg flip
 

Hi there i met old git RAy at Ripley and he had this helmet Caberg Sintesi - FREE UK DELIVERY
he told me it was the only filp that carried a pass sticker said that it could be used safely open
thanks
Doug

whoda thought?
 

This has certainly turned out to be a hot talking point. As I mentioned earlier for me the only choice was either jet, flip front or car. That said of the two helmets I have, Caberg Trip and Shark Evoline, the Shark is the only one I can ride around on at anything over 20mph with the chin bar up. The drag on the Caberg is just to uncomfortable and makes me feel as though some one is pushing my head backwards. If this link works then I hope the pic will show what the Shark is like with the chin bar up.
Helmet City Shark Evoline 'Moovit' White WKS
There are already pics of a Caberg trip with the chin bar in raised position. Although the Caberg is comfortable, I use it as a second spare helmet and at best it is only practical with the chin bar down or when you have stopped at the lights and need a fag without taking the damn thing off.
Just my oppinion of course but I hope it helps.
GM

I've had three of what I would call "big offs"

I went over the bonnet of a car when the idiot bint driver pulled out on me...

I went straight over the bonnet and all the front of my helmet (the chin area) was all scratched up. It took a lot of the impact when I hit the ground.

The second crash I had was offroad doing 70mph (stupid I know).. I was thrown off the bike and rolled a few times. The chin section was scratched then too. Id was obviously the prominent point sticking out when I rolled sideways...

I obviously can't say if I flip would of been fine because I wasn't wearing one, but for some to say to hit your chin is very unlikely, was in my case.. untrue..

For me, 2/3 crashes have caused chin damage to my helmet... That's why I won't wear a flip...

different strokes for different folks. Just relaying my own experience of my own offs. Always seem to hurt my wrists elbows and shoulders and head never seems to touch the ground.

Never had anything worse than a bruised knee from one of the many cars I've managed to steer round. Must be the superior peripheral vision afforded by my open face :innocent: :stormy::rofl:

Sorry guys, a sample of 2 away from controlled conditions proves nothing except your own preferences. HURT etc. were fair attempts at something better but are incomplete. The only things we know are:

a) Helmets are better than no-helmet
b) All helmets currently on sale with the correct EU stickers meet the basic requirements.

I did once have an odd rash down below, maybe I should start a thread about the evils of leather trousers in hot weather :oops2::rofl:

Andy

All of my crashes have been in full face helmets, so don't buy them, they cause accidents! :)

Thinking about it, everytime i've crashed I was wearing clothes too...

From now on, the only protection i'll use is a piano...


http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-05...3367770550.jpg

I have used a flip front for the past 5 years or so. Much nicer to wear in hot slow riding conditions...towns etc etc.
I started with the Shoei which was excellent. I've now replaced it with a Shark Evoline. The chin bar flips right back, and the Sun visor or the clear visor can be used one at a time or both together....unlike the Shoei. Once the chin bar was up the visor stayed up, which was a pain.
With the Shoei I found that with the chin bar down, the visor was literally right in your face. The Shark seems to have a bit more room between your chin and the visor....nicer in my opinion.

So the Shark just nudges it if I had to choose a favourite.

Hope that helps!

Some very useful suggestions (and amuzing anecdotes!), thanks one and all!

I'm going to look at / try on a Caberg Sintesi. It's not that expensive, has some excellent features and good reviews. The Schuberth C3 medium is too small for me, the large too big; no good fit, don't buy! The Shoei Multitech impacts on my temples a little too much - if I have to modify it before buying it (depressing the lining to take away the impact area), is it the right helmet? I also like the Caberg's internal visor.

I just wish Arai made flip fronts - I'd buy one in an instant!

There's too much choice! The only plus side is I need to decide in the next two weeks before I set off 'round Europe . . . .

:scooter:

Thanks for all the info. and suggestions; I've just bought a Wine Red Shoei Multitec. VERY plush, and does the job! :thumbup1:

Cheers again . . . .

You should read this rather damning report if you are contemplating a flip up helmet.

So a bloke who keeps his helmets 8-years and got customer service he wasn't happy with decides a moulded plastic screw mount "looks a bit small". (That self tapper will take well over 500N, I don't have the tables here to check it).

Where's the impact test. Where's the stress calculation? Where's the proof it didn't break because he accidentally knocked it off the seat while getting ready to set off, or got stuck with an unfamilair mechanism, or decided he fancied a game of football?

This proves that where there is a mechanism rather than structure, damage can be investigated by a strip down and nothing more. If HJC took him to a UK court for liable he'd end up quite a bit poorer.

Sorry, still not proven, except maybe that the official tests tell us nothing more than helmet good, no helmet bad. Thanks for posting though, another hundred of these and you might form a better picture.

Andy

That self tapper might take 500N but the molded plastic lug won't..

I'm no engineer, but I've learnt that if something looks cheap, flimsy and complicated..... 9/10 times it is !!

We obviously can't judge all flips by this report but any moving part or break in the structure is going to be an weak point.. That's day one, class one of engineering 101 ! lol

I am an engineer and wouldn't condemn the plastic lug and self tapper on photographic evidence. It broke, we know nothing else. I'd agree to stretch this and say maybe this particular design isn't robust enough to withstand the rougher sort of consumer as I don't suppose the guy did play footy with it intentionally.

The hinge and lock simply need designing correctly. I don't suppose you've welded up the doors on any car you might own? Definate weak spot there and hundreds of people slam their fingers in them each year :rofl:

The issue here is that this guy thinks that because he can see a broken part he knows the design is worse than what he's used to. The fact the eight year old full face (only a lump of polystyrene type material) would need an x-ray,ultrasound or destructive test to show him the weak spot or damage somehow gives him comfort. It's a reaction to an unfamiliar technology that hasn't worked for him. It's human nature as seen by the FI vs Carbs and ABS/ASR threads and dare I mention it discussions about oil. :nono: :rofl:

I bet a few guys who liked cork and leather claimed plastic would melt if you slid along the road?

Andy

The helmet that is broken was "about 2 years old" according to that report. Personally, looking at the photos that mechanism does not look like something I would want to hold my chin bar in place during an accident. I am not an engineer, but don't you engineers think that the flip up mechanism looks significantly weaker than a solid chin bar? Couple this with various reports of these things opening in an accident. Is a flip up better than an open face? Sure. Is it as protective as a full coverage? No. That seems pretty obvious. Why don't they use bolts or other fastenings that pass through the material? Frankly, I was surprised how spindly the mechanism is.

I don't know about you but I prefer to put my head in something that is a bit better than just meeting the " Basic Requirements" for helmet safety.

I know there are cheap & expensive full face helmets and I know that there are cheap & expensive flips. But I cannot understand the viewpoint that flips are as safe as full face but I am not an engineer (Mechanical, Structural or Theoretical). Nor do I think it takes one to make an informed statement about such things. All I Know is I will not trust my head and life to one, cheap or otherwise.

Everyone is different. Some feel quite strongly that flips are ok, some think open face are ok, some don't like helmets at all. Its your head.

You'd need to employ someone to develop and an carry out a suitable test then, the basic ones from the 1960's are the only standards we have.

I know you all want to believe that these are something more than lumps of polystyrene, but the facts point only to some early testing, developments to add practicality, some testing to show these didn't change very much and one heck of a lot of marketing. There has been no advanced testing and the only measurable change in casualty rates was when they went from no helmets to helmets. It's possible one type is better, but there is no proof. (If there was, they'd ban the lower performance helmets in Europe as this would drive sales of the safer type).

Do you suppose Brunel would have tried to make a bridge that looked like the Millau viaduct? The Victorian public and journalists looked at the Menai bridge and said it would fall down. It didn't because IBK calculated for wrought iron not just brick. The Millau bridge stays up despite looking weaker because modern cables are superior to iron chain and we can calculate the forces to a much better degree. We don't know if that plastic in the flip front was NASA grade stuff that had been abused or the same stuff as chip shop forks that hadn't.

Andy

Makes me curious as to what the mechanisms look like on other flip fronts. That article said many of them look similar to the HJC design.

The Shuberth one is similar complete with plastic bearing faces, self tappers and stamped pressings (seat belt technology) for the latch. No cable though (opens by a trigger on the side). The latch had (metal) bullet shaped bolts that look like they were intended to grip the chin bar more tightly if struck (good if you are sliding on your face, bad if choking on blood I guess). One of the reasons I binned this helmet was that the aluminium round the pivots wore oval and the chin bar was starting to stick on the catch bolts. This was at 3 1/2 years old, so the foam and other components would be worn out at about the same time, so call it the design life.

The Caberg one is similar from the outside (only ever changed a visor, my Dad's still using it).

As stated previously, the Roof is a just an open face with a shaped, opaque visor. The chin bar/lower visor pivots on an aluminium spacer held with bolts that screw into an insert held in the foam by a simple push fit. It's secured with rubbery plastic straps and press studs (if struck I would be interested to see if the chin bar would go past the closed position and drive into the wearers throat, the only thing stopping it is the friction of the pivot going past it's designed spacing, straps do nothing in compression. A cosmetic approach where the Shuberth and Caberg are engineered me thinks.

Andy

I think the SHARP tests are a little more current than the 1960s.
SHARP Helmets - The helmet safety scheme

So are the Snell standards that the same higher range helmets meet that are on sale in Europe.
Snell Foundation - helmet standards

I think I understand what you are saying but to me it seems logical (and factual) that some helmets meet the standards, others fail and others still exceed the standards. It's the later that I want to put on my head.

As I said before wear what you like, it's your head.

They are all variants of the British Standard shaped impact test. The SHARP animation is good and is an advance as they take the actual accelerometer figure to produce the score rather than just pass or fail. When the British Standard was written they were still using eggs, pedulums and lightbulbs to measure the impact force transmitted, so that's all they could do. They should make them put the Sharp stars on instead of the EC approved sticker.

No testing is done in the chin area though, hence our old friend the Roof Boxer gets 4-stars:

SHARP Helmets

Now if they repeated the back/crown/side impact on the chin, that might separate the good the bad and the ugly and stop open faced with painted visors getting mixed in with the engineered flip fronts. I bet their techs have "accidentally" done it and not many of them buy from Roof.

Andy

Apologies that the following has no "real" empirical evidence to back it up: I used to ride with a flip up helmet, then when John "Bunny" Hill of Bracken BMW was killed in a m/c crash where (allegedly) his chin-guard came off his flip helmet, I switched to full face.

Also having read Lois Pryce's South America adventure book where her riding buddy had an accident and mashed up her face while wearing an open face helmet and having a few chips on the chin of various m/x style helmets following off road crashes and also a big chip on the chin of a road bike helmet after high-siding a fully loaded Enfield Bullet in India (don't laugh :(: up hill, hairpin bend at 4500m on a 350cc) , I'll stick to full face as I need a chin guard down 100% of the time.

I use the "expensive" Arai brand as I hope they are better quality than cheaper lids and their size 61/62 fits my head perfectly, so I can buy mail order without trying it on first and hence save a few pennies.

cheers
Chris

The Snell test has a specific chin bar test.

Snell Foundation - helmet testing

As I said earlier the Snell tests are done to the same lids available in Europe and in fact all around the world.

You can even look up what helmets are certified.

Snell Foundation - certified helmets

Although this may be where you tell me flip helmets are certified.doh

[QUOTE=Jimbike;340603]



I also have a Davida open face which is very comfy leather interior and very quiet. I think it looks cool in Union Flag colours, too. I'm preferring it more and more :)

I hope that helps you :)

I too use a Davida quite a lot but only in the uk though - its got to be the most quiet helmet ever built and very comfy - I love it but am sick of insect hits and bee stings while using it so have gone back to the Arai with visor. The Arai is lighter but really really noisy, drafty and cold in winter in comparison - and i would say really does not feel anywhere near as well built or of the same Quality - even though it cost more (waiting for all the Insults from hordes of Aria groupies !!!.

The "hjc is multi" is not listed. does this mean it failed the test or the list is not up to date?
I really like this helmet and as a spectacle wearer find those with fixed chin guards near impossible to get on. I really do miss the peak when riding into the sun.

Couldn't tell you oldbmw.

The Sharp tests and ratings also include a "Percentage of impacts where the faceguard remained fully locked" for 'system' helmets;

The Caberg Konda gets 97% (and 5 stars)
The HJC IS Max gets 40% (and 3 stars)
The Shoei Multitech gets 83% (and 3 stars)
The Schubeth C3 gets 97% (and 3 stars)
The Shrk Evoline gets 70% (and 4 stars)

My hard earned went on the Caberg, which I got for £99. The Shoei and Schubeth are both above £400.

As I said before, what else do we have to go on?

Clive

Either not submitted or failed or too new to be included. Test houses never publish the fails, it puts designers off trying anything new for fear of brand contamination (and hence reduces the fees).

Andy

I ll say this about My flip up made by HJC Peace of crap. One day after dropping it off my chair and onto the carpeted floor it wouldn't stay open. It's 2 feet to the ground. Once I took the face off to see why it was acting up , I found out just how bad they make them. The brass nuts which hold the face on 2 felt off in the holes out of four.( No way to get them back because the foam shell is in the way) Found out they are just held there by crazy glue when I asked HJC. At least one hole shows cracking in the fiberglass around it. ( This from a never crashed helmet.) The 1 Plastic peace that holds the helmet face up is broken. I m guessing just it just wore out. HJC is worse then Vega flips ups. At least when it broke I knew that I had go my 50 bucks of of it. The reason it broke was the wire inside the flip mech snapped. Vega in wa state didn't want to warranty the helmet. Told me don't call us again. Vega is a crap company . HJC is 150 bucks down the drain do to bad design.. I m going with Nolan n90 for 220 bucks. You could also get the Nolan n102 for 150 from Extreme Supply, The Original street and off-road motorcycle products and accessories
Both have metal instead of plastic in the hocks that hole the face in place. Also Nolan N90 is 2010 flip helment of the year at webbike.com

I currently own the following three flip front helmets:

Caberg Justissimo

Flip front with integrated sun visor (an awesome feature). Not certified as an open faced helmet (Only shark and Boxer are as far as I know. Looks a bit old I think. Easy to operate. Didn't fit well arround the ears for neither me nor my wife, especially with intercom put in it - which is why I decided to replace it with the next helmet. I have written favourable reviews for this helmet before, and I don't have a problem reccomending a purchase as long as it fits your head well, with a headset!

Roof Boxer
Flip front without integrated sun visor, which I really missed. Certified also as an open face helmet. Looks really cool, one of the coolest on the market. Offers great visibility and space for your own chin, and using it with a headset is no problem. It was for me really comfortable, except the ventilated holes blew air right up my nose, it felt like it was running (my friend has the same helmet and does not have this problem) I had a slightly tinted visor, which proved a mistake at nightfall. Operating the two fastners is fiddly, as is getting the visor closed properly, which is why I decided to replace it with the next helmet. I cannot reccomend this helmet.

Shark Evoline Series 3
It has everything the others have, and lacks nothing. It is very easy to operate once you've got the procedure nailed (you can't lower the chin with the visor in the lower position, you have to lower the chin, then the visor). It has a built in sun visor, it is certified as an open faced helmet. As with the boxer, you can use it with or without the visor, and/or with or without the chin (and with or without the sun visor for the shark only). The shark's chin folds back in very aero dynamic way, and the chin is extremely light and offers plenty of room for your own chin and a boom bar intercom microphone. I have not tried it with intercom, but there are padding pieces that can be removed, specifically to accomodate a head set. It doesn't look as cool as the boxer, but is far cooler than the caberg. It has a fast buckle chin strap, as with the boxer. But, I think it is not as comfortable... I might do something about this, but it isn't bad enough to warrant changing it. For me there is a slight pressure point on the forehead, which does create some discomfort after riding for 12-15 hours straight.

I don't think a better flip front excist....

I have used a Shark Evoline for about 12 months and have found it excellent - most useful. My previous helmet was a BMW 2 which came off in a crash causing concussion and 6 weeks off work. This is the result: It came off with the chin piece closed and latched. I now wouldn't use a helmet without an absolutely foolproof fastening such as "D" rings (which my Shark has) and a really good, tight fit.
I'm lucky to be alive (and thanks to the Royal Flying Doctor) and the moral of the story is to be wearing a helmet when you hit the ground.

(apologies to webBikeWorld for using their picture)
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motor...k-evoline/dot/