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  #61  
Old 14 Jul 2011
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So a bloke who keeps his helmets 8-years and got customer service he wasn't happy with decides a moulded plastic screw mount "looks a bit small". (That self tapper will take well over 500N, I don't have the tables here to check it).

Where's the impact test. Where's the stress calculation? Where's the proof it didn't break because he accidentally knocked it off the seat while getting ready to set off, or got stuck with an unfamilair mechanism, or decided he fancied a game of football?

This proves that where there is a mechanism rather than structure, damage can be investigated by a strip down and nothing more. If HJC took him to a UK court for liable he'd end up quite a bit poorer.

Sorry, still not proven, except maybe that the official tests tell us nothing more than helmet good, no helmet bad. Thanks for posting though, another hundred of these and you might form a better picture.

Andy
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  #62  
Old 14 Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
So a bloke who keeps his helmets 8-years and got customer service he wasn't happy with decides a moulded plastic screw mount "looks a bit small". (That self tapper will take well over 500N, I don't have the tables here to check it).

Where's the impact test. Where's the stress calculation? Where's the proof it didn't break because he accidentally knocked it off the seat while getting ready to set off, or got stuck with an unfamilair mechanism, or decided he fancied a game of football?

This proves that where there is a mechanism rather than structure, damage can be investigated by a strip down and nothing more. If HJC took him to a UK court for liable he'd end up quite a bit poorer.

Sorry, still not proven, except maybe that the official tests tell us nothing more than helmet good, no helmet bad. Thanks for posting though, another hundred of these and you might form a better picture.

Andy
That self tapper might take 500N but the molded plastic lug won't..

I'm no engineer, but I've learnt that if something looks cheap, flimsy and complicated..... 9/10 times it is !!

We obviously can't judge all flips by this report but any moving part or break in the structure is going to be an weak point.. That's day one, class one of engineering 101 ! lol
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  #63  
Old 14 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
That self tapper might take 500N but the molded plastic lug won't..

I'm no engineer, but I've learnt that if something looks cheap, flimsy and complicated..... 9/10 times it is !!

We obviously can't judge all flips by this report but any moving part or break in the structure is going to be an weak point.. That's day one, class one of engineering 101 ! lol
I am an engineer and wouldn't condemn the plastic lug and self tapper on photographic evidence. It broke, we know nothing else. I'd agree to stretch this and say maybe this particular design isn't robust enough to withstand the rougher sort of consumer as I don't suppose the guy did play footy with it intentionally.

The hinge and lock simply need designing correctly. I don't suppose you've welded up the doors on any car you might own? Definate weak spot there and hundreds of people slam their fingers in them each year

The issue here is that this guy thinks that because he can see a broken part he knows the design is worse than what he's used to. The fact the eight year old full face (only a lump of polystyrene type material) would need an x-ray,ultrasound or destructive test to show him the weak spot or damage somehow gives him comfort. It's a reaction to an unfamiliar technology that hasn't worked for him. It's human nature as seen by the FI vs Carbs and ABS/ASR threads and dare I mention it discussions about oil.

I bet a few guys who liked cork and leather claimed plastic would melt if you slid along the road?

Andy
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  #64  
Old 14 Jul 2011
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The helmet that is broken was "about 2 years old" according to that report. Personally, looking at the photos that mechanism does not look like something I would want to hold my chin bar in place during an accident. I am not an engineer, but don't you engineers think that the flip up mechanism looks significantly weaker than a solid chin bar? Couple this with various reports of these things opening in an accident. Is a flip up better than an open face? Sure. Is it as protective as a full coverage? No. That seems pretty obvious. Why don't they use bolts or other fastenings that pass through the material? Frankly, I was surprised how spindly the mechanism is.
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  #65  
Old 15 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
The only things we know are:
a) Helmets are better than no-helmet
b) All helmets currently on sale with the correct EU stickers meet the basic requirements.
I don't know about you but I prefer to put my head in something that is a bit better than just meeting the " Basic Requirements" for helmet safety.

I know there are cheap & expensive full face helmets and I know that there are cheap & expensive flips. But I cannot understand the viewpoint that flips are as safe as full face but I am not an engineer (Mechanical, Structural or Theoretical). Nor do I think it takes one to make an informed statement about such things. All I Know is I will not trust my head and life to one, cheap or otherwise.

Everyone is different. Some feel quite strongly that flips are ok, some think open face are ok, some don't like helmets at all. Its your head.
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  #66  
Old 15 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by gixxer.rob View Post
I don't know about you but I prefer to put my head in something that is a bit better than just meeting the " Basic Requirements" for helmet safety.

.
You'd need to employ someone to develop and an carry out a suitable test then, the basic ones from the 1960's are the only standards we have.

I know you all want to believe that these are something more than lumps of polystyrene, but the facts point only to some early testing, developments to add practicality, some testing to show these didn't change very much and one heck of a lot of marketing. There has been no advanced testing and the only measurable change in casualty rates was when they went from no helmets to helmets. It's possible one type is better, but there is no proof. (If there was, they'd ban the lower performance helmets in Europe as this would drive sales of the safer type).

Do you suppose Brunel would have tried to make a bridge that looked like the Millau viaduct? The Victorian public and journalists looked at the Menai bridge and said it would fall down. It didn't because IBK calculated for wrought iron not just brick. The Millau bridge stays up despite looking weaker because modern cables are superior to iron chain and we can calculate the forces to a much better degree. We don't know if that plastic in the flip front was NASA grade stuff that had been abused or the same stuff as chip shop forks that hadn't.

Andy
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  #67  
Old 15 Jul 2011
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Makes me curious as to what the mechanisms look like on other flip fronts. That article said many of them look similar to the HJC design.
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  #68  
Old 15 Jul 2011
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The Shuberth one is similar complete with plastic bearing faces, self tappers and stamped pressings (seat belt technology) for the latch. No cable though (opens by a trigger on the side). The latch had (metal) bullet shaped bolts that look like they were intended to grip the chin bar more tightly if struck (good if you are sliding on your face, bad if choking on blood I guess). One of the reasons I binned this helmet was that the aluminium round the pivots wore oval and the chin bar was starting to stick on the catch bolts. This was at 3 1/2 years old, so the foam and other components would be worn out at about the same time, so call it the design life.

The Caberg one is similar from the outside (only ever changed a visor, my Dad's still using it).

As stated previously, the Roof is a just an open face with a shaped, opaque visor. The chin bar/lower visor pivots on an aluminium spacer held with bolts that screw into an insert held in the foam by a simple push fit. It's secured with rubbery plastic straps and press studs (if struck I would be interested to see if the chin bar would go past the closed position and drive into the wearers throat, the only thing stopping it is the friction of the pivot going past it's designed spacing, straps do nothing in compression. A cosmetic approach where the Shuberth and Caberg are engineered me thinks.

Andy
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  #69  
Old 16 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
You'd need to employ someone to develop and an carry out a suitable test then, the basic ones from the 1960's are the only standards we have.
I think the SHARP tests are a little more current than the 1960s.
SHARP Helmets - The helmet safety scheme

So are the Snell standards that the same higher range helmets meet that are on sale in Europe.
Snell Foundation - helmet standards

I think I understand what you are saying but to me it seems logical (and factual) that some helmets meet the standards, others fail and others still exceed the standards. It's the later that I want to put on my head.

As I said before wear what you like, it's your head.
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  #70  
Old 16 Jul 2011
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They are all variants of the British Standard shaped impact test. The SHARP animation is good and is an advance as they take the actual accelerometer figure to produce the score rather than just pass or fail. When the British Standard was written they were still using eggs, pedulums and lightbulbs to measure the impact force transmitted, so that's all they could do. They should make them put the Sharp stars on instead of the EC approved sticker.

No testing is done in the chin area though, hence our old friend the Roof Boxer gets 4-stars:

SHARP Helmets

Now if they repeated the back/crown/side impact on the chin, that might separate the good the bad and the ugly and stop open faced with painted visors getting mixed in with the engineered flip fronts. I bet their techs have "accidentally" done it and not many of them buy from Roof.

Andy
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  #71  
Old 16 Jul 2011
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Apologies that the following has no "real" empirical evidence to back it up: I used to ride with a flip up helmet, then when John "Bunny" Hill of Bracken BMW was killed in a m/c crash where (allegedly) his chin-guard came off his flip helmet, I switched to full face.

Also having read Lois Pryce's South America adventure book where her riding buddy had an accident and mashed up her face while wearing an open face helmet and having a few chips on the chin of various m/x style helmets following off road crashes and also a big chip on the chin of a road bike helmet after high-siding a fully loaded Enfield Bullet in India (don't laugh : up hill, hairpin bend at 4500m on a 350cc) , I'll stick to full face as I need a chin guard down 100% of the time.

I use the "expensive" Arai brand as I hope they are better quality than cheaper lids and their size 61/62 fits my head perfectly, so I can buy mail order without trying it on first and hence save a few pennies.

cheers
Chris

Last edited by chris; 16 Jul 2011 at 14:03. Reason: adding detail
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  #72  
Old 17 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
No testing is done in the chin area though
The Snell test has a specific chin bar test.

Snell Foundation - helmet testing

As I said earlier the Snell tests are done to the same lids available in Europe and in fact all around the world.

You can even look up what helmets are certified.

Snell Foundation - certified helmets

Although this may be where you tell me flip helmets are certified.

Last edited by gixxer.rob; 17 Jul 2011 at 23:32.
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  #73  
Old 17 Jul 2011
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[QUOTE=Jimbike;340603]



I also have a Davida open face which is very comfy leather interior and very quiet. I think it looks cool in Union Flag colours, too. I'm preferring it more and more

I hope that helps you

I too use a Davida quite a lot but only in the uk though - its got to be the most quiet helmet ever built and very comfy - I love it but am sick of insect hits and bee stings while using it so have gone back to the Arai with visor. The Arai is lighter but really really noisy, drafty and cold in winter in comparison - and i would say really does not feel anywhere near as well built or of the same Quality - even though it cost more (waiting for all the Insults from hordes of Aria groupies !!!.
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  #74  
Old 18 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by gixxer.rob View Post
The Snell test has a specific chin bar test.

Snell Foundation - helmet testing

As I said earlier the Snell tests are done to the same lids available in Europe and in fact all around the world.

You can even look up what helmets are certified.

Snell Foundation - certified helmets

Although this may be where you tell me flip helmets are certified.
The "hjc is multi" is not listed. does this mean it failed the test or the list is not up to date?
I really like this helmet and as a spectacle wearer find those with fixed chin guards near impossible to get on. I really do miss the peak when riding into the sun.
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  #75  
Old 19 Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by oldbmw View Post
The "hjc is multi" is not listed. does this mean it failed the test or the list is not up to date?
I really like this helmet and as a spectacle wearer find those with fixed chin guards near impossible to get on. I really do miss the peak when riding into the sun.
Couldn't tell you oldbmw.
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