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dajg 8 May 2010 08:12

total power failure f650 twin - stuck in khartoum
 
also posted on advrider
total power failure f650 twin - stuck in khartoum - ADVrider

hey guys, i'm currently stuck in khartoum, sudan. the last 100km was done in the back of a pickup. Its 43 degrees C, and zero alcohol, but i'm sure somehow it could be worse.

background:

the bike did its 40000km service in stuttgart, germany. it now has just under 51000km. egypt is ok with 92 octane. sudan is generally somewhere in the 80 octane range (price was 1.8 sudanese pounds per litre), however before my problem became severe i did buy some cheaper fuel (1.46 pounds per litre) which was possibly as low as 76 (stations are few and far between - there was no alternative and the attendants speak f/a english). after the problem became very irritating i tipped the bike over & drained the fuel and filled up with a jerry of new 80 something octane. problem still exists.

through australia i rode in 40 degree heat and the bike was fine. through iran i was buying leaded petrol of dubious quality. the bike was fine. likewise syria, jordan, india, cambodia etc.

after 400km in sudan, with high 30's ambient temperature, i dropped the bike in sand (fell over - using bald michelin anakee rear...). i doubt this affected anything but i'll give you all the info.

the problem:

the problem started at low revs (400km into sudan from the egypt-sudan ferry crossing) - coasting into a petrol station or whatever in neutral or with clutch. the engine totally cut out. i could deal with this - just meant restarting.

about 50km after the possibly lower octane fuel i was sitting on 95km in 6th around 3.7 l/100km and 3200 rpm and the engine cut out (total power loss - no throttle response).

the ignition was still on, all guages, no warning lights. i pulled the clutch, turned ignition off, lights off then ignition on and hit start, kept rolling, geared down and away i went. this was ok for maybe 50-100km.

the problem got steadily worse. it was happening every 2km or so for 30km until i stopped to think for a bit (the battery was having more trouble starting the bike again). i tried the refuel etc. as per below to no avail.

finally i figured it was occuring as i backed off the throttle i.e. behind a truck while i waited for an opportunity to overtake. thus after a couple hours fiddling in a servo and calls to germany, i took off and cranked up to 100km/k in 5th at 4000rpm. bike was fine for 27km then no-go. had troubles getting it from the side of the road going again from 1st.

eventually i decided to jack the revs up again, doing 100km/h in 3rd gear at 5000rpm. i managed about 60km but every time i backed off behind a truck or for pothles / train tracks etc i lost all power. zero throttle response.

the problem has continually become worse all through the rev range. i might have done a bit further in 2nd gear but would have been pointless. i put the bike on a truck to the campsite in khartoum (pretty secure - blue nile sailing club).

there are no big bikes here. the closest bmw dealer who might have a diagnosic computer is kenya (gotta get through ethiopia to get there so a truck isn't a good option).

so - as far as i can explain - running fine, then back off slightly on the throttle (i mean a couple hundred to a thousand revs) and there is total, instantaneous loss of throttle & engine failure. the power loss is not gradual nor is there any warning.

attempts to resolve:

1. emptied tank by tipping bike & filled with slightly better fuel (there is nothing over 80 something octane in sudan). did not resolve
2. checked the breather tube from the tank (starts under the right side rear fairing). its routed clear of the rear tyre and doesn't seem to be blocked.
3. disconnected same breather tube from outlet. did not resolve
4. called germany...
4a. they suggested resetting computer by holding positive & negative battery cables together, then starting the bike with no throttle and waiting for it to warm up. before the fan kicked in the engine stalled. so, did not resolve
4b. they suggested watching the rpm guage when problem occurs - if the needle went straight back to zero (before i pull the clutch) this would indicate the ignition timing sensor was faulty. however the rpm guage drops normally as the bike slows down in gear (then to zero when i pull the clutch)
5. filled the tank. nope
6. checked the air filter. was pretty clean - i cleaned and reoiled in luxor 1000km ago. its a foam filter but i have a new paper one to try but i think problem is fuel delivery so haven't changed it yet.

i am aware of the common f800 stalling problem however this has only ever affected me once or twice before a fill up, and only maybe 7-8 times in the last 35000km. the symptoms aren't the same now.

i don't think the problem is:
- fuel quality
- ambient air temperature
- air filter
- any sand where it shouldn't be from having fallen over
- normal stalling issue common to these bikes

anyone had the same problem? anyone suggest a possible solution?

the import duties are likely to be in the 100's of % i.e. if i need a $1000 fuel injection system, with delivery is likely to be close on $3500... so i don't want to order anything as a maybe...

i'll be back online at least once a day until i solve this. if you want more info just post & i'll add it on.

thanks in advance
dave

Toyark 8 May 2010 12:38

If time/visas/money permist consider buying the 'Hex 911' dongle and getting it sent to you. It will interrogate your bike and tell you the real story. You will need either a notebook with a usb lead OR if you buy the bluetooth version, either noteboook and lead OR a mobile phone with bluetooth- the phone needs be JSR82 compliant- to run the Java application.
Software for phone testing and 911 available for customers to download from site.

I do not know your 650 but I have a F650Dakar single- here is the BMS-C reset procedure- it may be the same for yours
  1. -Under your seat, remove the BMS-C (silver box)
  2. - allow about an hour disconnected
  3. -reconnect BMS-C (careful not to bend any pins)
  4. -turn on ignition ONLY (NOT engine)
  5. slowly rotate throttle to max and slowly bring back to nothing
  6. ==> do this last bit twice
  7. Turn OFF ignition
  8. Allow a few seconds
  9. turn ON ignition and turn ON engine (without using throttle)
  10. allow bike to warm up on its own until fan kicks in
  11. turn off
This will have reset the idle on the bike
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you have time,
  • you might also want to check that your fuel tank fuel filter isn't clogged up.
  • Check spark plug for possible 'bridge' (burn out carbon bridging electrode)
  • or possibly shorting from HT lead onto frame somewhere- if its dark it helps to find this-
  • Spark plug cap could also be fried
  • Check fuel tank venting- i.e fuel is being replaced with air
  • add some octane booster toy your fuel tank (great for cleaning a multi fuel stove too!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry it isn't much but all I can suggest - good luck Dave

dave ett 8 May 2010 18:56

These bikes are very good at saving fuel by cutting the injectors on the over-run. This is partly what caused the stalling problem as I understand it.

Have you tried winding the tickover up? Use the throttle cable adjusters below the front brake lever to stop it from closing the throttle completely.

Has it lost performance overall - more than you might expect with lower octane fuel? Perhaps the injector(s) are clogged?

Still got a catalyser fitted? This may be bunged with if you've had leaded fuel in it.

Have you checked for fuel leaks around the injection system?

Checked all electrical plugs are properly seated and undamaged from falling off?

Let us know if you fix it or need some more help!

Tim Cullis 8 May 2010 19:48

Hi Dave

I don't think it's the low grade fuel or the cat.

I had a somewhat similar problem on my F650GS twin that was never properly resolved before the bike was handed back to BMW. The final straw was having the bike recovered on a trailer on the way to Poland.

Have a read of my thread on UKGSer. It wouldn't hurt to try disconnecting the side stand switch, it's simple to do.

Anyway, I've cross posted your problem in the F650/800GS forum.

Tim

Hypographamist 8 May 2010 20:23

Hi Dave

Long shot but I've had bad experiences with low octane fuel causing 'wiskers' across
plug electrodes. These are carbon build ups and they play havoc with your plugs
firing. Symptoms are you're running fine then miss fire starts and increases, you stop
and bike starts OK after a while as the plug has cooled down and the firing up of the engine blows the wisker off the electrodes. Off you go again and the process repeats.
I found that a long coast with closed throttle then just as the bike is at a standstill
open the throttle and maybe the whisker blows off.

Permanent cure is difficult whilst all you can get is rubbish petrol.

Maybe try opening the plug gaps see what happens - easy to do and worth trying..

Good luck..

Neil

Tim Cullis 9 May 2010 00:17

Here's a thread I came across on F800riders.org talking about cut outs.

Quote:

In June of 2008, CIP CD11.2 was released. In this update, one of the things that was specifically addressed was a issue that resulted in a cutout situation on the K72 motorcycles - the F800GS and F650GS Twin. The cutout, unlike what has caused the issues with the S and ST revolved around the sidestand.

The sidestand on each motorcycle is alarmed so that when down, or rather when not up, the engine will not engage in fear of the rider zooming off with stand down and causing an accident. What was happening is that the side stand switch was returning an, "implausible" signal to the computer and thus shutting off the engine.
This seems like it could be related to the problems I had, and may be helpful to you. In my case the problem raised itself sometimes by cutting out when the first gear was selected, but as I noted in my thread on UKGSer could be overridden by high revs.

The problem also occured when the bike started normally, didn't object to being put into gear, but then kept stammering when riding plus general total cutouts.

Tim

Mickey D 9 May 2010 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrand (Post 288147)
If you have time,
  • you might also want to check that your fuel tank fuel filter isn't clogged up.
  • Check spark plug for possible 'bridge' (burn out carbon bridging electrode)
  • or possibly shorting from HT lead onto frame somewhere- if its dark it helps to find this-
  • Spark plug cap could also be fried
  • Check fuel tank venting- i.e fuel is being replaced with air
  • add some octane booster toy your fuel tank (great for cleaning a multi fuel stove too!)
Sorry it isn't much but all I can suggest - good luck Dave

Great trouble shooting here! I like the fuel filter idea. Can it be accessed easily on your bike? Sand in fuel might have clogged it?

Dave, sounds like you've done a good job checking everything. Keep it up,
try to be scientific and keep track of your results as you go through systems. Otherwise you'll go crazy.

Question: How old is your battery?
As an X aircraft mechanic I always like to check simple and relatively cheap things first. Try hooking up a "known to be good" car battery to your bike.
See what happens. Check charging output if possible.

I don't know the F650/800's well but I know CANbus likes a HOT battery.
I've heard of bikes shutting down from just a low battery (dead cell).

You've got some good guys helping here, best of luck figuring out the problem(s). Remember, simple, cheap things first. Obvious things.
Now what have you overlooked? Think! :confused1:

Best!

dajg 9 May 2010 07:54

the battery was replaced (old one was fine at 18 months & 40000km but i figured it'd be too much trouble to replace in africa) at the 40k service.

while inspecting the bottom of the tank breather i noticed the cable to the side stand was frayed.. i will have a closer look at this.

gotta get back to the bike and start checking the list..

thanks guys, will keep you posted.
dave

Tim Cullis 9 May 2010 23:05

If you are not already aware, you can access the online parts fiches for the F800GS at Max BMW Motorcycles

dajg 10 May 2010 08:52

thanks Tim,

i haven't yet bypassed the side stand sensor because the bike stalled during warm up while still in neutral. i thought if it was side stand, the bike would only be stalling whilst in gear.

i bypassed the fuel pump electronics (part 16147719844 s/s by 16147720778 on max bmw) as per suggestions from bmw munich but the bike ran much worse, even dropping to 800 rpm prior to stalling.

the spark plugs were replaced at the 40k service however i haven't checked them yet - these were suggested again this morning by bmw jo'burg, so i will pull the airbox out shortly and have a look at these and the leads etc.

the cat seems fine, there is plenty of pressure out the exhaust, also i think a clogged cat wouldn't be an intermittent fault.

i've tried running the bike with the fuel cap open, this has no effect. likewise with the breather disconnected.

with my multimeter the battery was reading about 13.05 volts with ignition off so i think the cells etc are fine. also the terminals etc are all tight.

munich suggested checking the throttle positioning sensor to see the resistance. there are three terminals in the sensor, however i read 0 ohms on all the combinations whilst moving the throttle. thus, i've ordered a new sensor via DHL.... will see if it arrives & whether it helps.

i bought a bottle of injection cleaner which i will run through later though i think if this is the problem it would take a while for the cleaner to do its job. i cannot buy benzine / petrol octane booster here. there is a possibility of finding diesel octane booster but i don't know if that would be close enough... munich reckon i can't rule out poor fuel as the sole fault until i run "quality" fuel.

if there are any travellers coming with a truck, a can of 90+ octane would be great... likewise any bikers with a bottle of octane booster or a diagnostic tool... feel free to drop by the blue nile sailing club.

thanks for the ideas guys. if you think of anything else, obvious or otherwise, please let me know. my number here is +249927634682.

Tim Cullis 10 May 2010 09:46

For the sake of a few minutes work, I'd check both the spark plugs and the side stand switch.

Another suggestion from UKGSer was that it might be the lambda probe. A quote from Wikipedia "When an internal combustion engine is under high load (e.g. wide open throttle), the output of the oxygen sensor is ignored, and the ECU automatically enriches the mixture to protect the engine, as misfires under load are much more likely to cause damage" which seems to tie in to your experiences.

Anyway, the suggestion is to try disconnecting it in the expectation that it would fall back to a default map (not sure this is the case...).

See 650 cutting out at low revs - ::. UKGSer.com .:: (post #31) for a similar problem/diagnosis.

My experience with trying to import parts into third world countries it is often cheaper--and certainly a lot quicker--to get a friend to fly in with a selection of 'sale or return' parts and a GS911. A quick check came up with return KLM flights at less than £500, lastminute.com at under £350 and a host of cheaper offers that might or might not exist when you drill down.

I would offer, but my passport is currently away being renewed. :) Anyway, ideally you need someone technical.

Tim

PS: now cross posted on F800riders.org

Pumbaa 10 May 2010 09:49

Might be worth trying to speak to Chris at Jungle junction in Nairobi too. He knows a lot about the BMW (having work for them for many years). He might be able to get something to you which might be hard to get otherwise...maybe via someone travelling north.

Unfortunately haven't got his details with me, but I'm sure its on the hubb somewhere...

dajg 10 May 2010 15:53

ok, today i changed the plugs and added plenty of injection cleaner. still no luck finding octane booster.

went for a ride. as usual from (relatively cold start in 44 degree C heat) the bike was ok (city traffic, plenty of gear & RPM changes) for 20km.

after the first occurance, every time i back of the throttle, the bike stalls. so, i was 20km from camp and the bike stalled about 15 times on the 20km return. no good.

the leads which are visible around the plugs... look fine.

i will disconnect the side stand switch and go for a test ride later this afternoon (after peak hour...).

i am trying to order a lambda sensor (still doing homework on this) and a throttle positioning sensor (and maybe some octane booster if it can be airfreighted).

anyone technical with a gs911 and a handy bmw dealer interested in going though the visa hassles for a trip to khartoum...?

thanks again guys.
dave

Dodger 10 May 2010 17:12

Always look for the simple stuff ,check filter[s] .

Octane booster can be made from toluene paint thinner up to 25% by volume mixed with gasoline .
I doubt if low octane is your problem though .

Threewheelbonnie 10 May 2010 17:56

TPS may be inductive rather than resistive. If it is you'll only find the fault by swapping it, with service software or with an oscilloscope. Maybe a fellow owner can confirm?

Andy

Tim Cullis 10 May 2010 20:20

I've been on to a friend who's a consultant engineer on automotive side. Given the symptoms (OK with open throttle, problems with partial throttle), he reckons it's nothing to do with air or fuel filters, nor with blocked injectors, and that it's likely to be something to do with engine management.

We discussed the O2 sensor likelihood and he concurs that under fully open throttle the sensor is ignored. He's concerned that if the sensor is detached the system might go into a 'limp home' mode with substantially reduced power. Mind you, given your bike's current state, that might be an improvement. ;)

I'll do some more digging and see what I can find.

Tim

AliBaba 10 May 2010 22:55

If you can get a multimeter it's possible to meassure the signal from the O2-sensor, it should be very low when engine not running and increase to at least 0.4V when the engine has idled for a while.
Even in Khartoum it should be possible to get an O2-sensor it doesn't have to be the original. There is (or was) a BMW-dealer close to the Sailing club and I guess there should be other dealers around.

But as Tim says try to disconnect it and see what happens. Is there a way to reset the ECU or TPS-signals?

It might be smart to fix the sidestand-issue before you start messing with the O2-sensor.

Edit:
Some more info: Bosch lambda sensor - Checking and trouble-shooting

docsherlock 11 May 2010 00:41

I would re-boot the firmware before doing anything else, esp given the preceding advice this is likely to be an engine management problem.

m0ng00se 11 May 2010 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docsherlock (Post 288416)
I would re-boot the firmware before doing anything else, esp given the preceding advice this is likely to be an engine management problem.

Hi Docsherlock,

How do one reboot the firmware ? I am having similar stalling issues which started a few weeks ago, went away, but came back again today. Took of my side stand last night, cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40 and this morning it seemed fine, although it was only an 8 mile commute into work.

We are also leaving London towards Cape Town down the East Coast in September this year and I think I will now invest in a GS-911 and get to grips with it before we leave and also take it along on the trip.

dajg, I am interested to see how you get on and if you find a fix ... I will be following this thread closely ...

dajg 11 May 2010 14:44

ok...

so i disconnected the throttle positioning sensor. the bike still runs, and the stalling issue is the same however the engine warning and the general warning lights came on.

i tracked down a bottle of octane booster!! ok so on the other side of the street 60 west giraf from the kenyan embassy go south 500m look for "my car" shop they have a bunch of stuff.

however, i added the octane booster but no improvement.

i'll try some chain lube or wd40 on the side stand switch but i don't think this is the problem.

once the bike is hot i can replicate the problem on the centre stand at camp. i pulled the seat off and listened to the fuel pump. sounds good, and runs for 1-1.5 seconds AFTER the engine dies so i think pump is ok.

i haven't managed to figure where the lambda sensor is (or what it looks like...). i will disconnect it (stuttgart reckon i can ride without it) likewise the engine temperature guage (when i find that too... the tech DVD is really rubbish for diagnostics or locating parts).

i'll give the battery a try.

can anyone explain to me how the fuel pump starts? after stall, it takes 3-5 seconds for the engine to catch when i hit the starter button. sometimes i have to turn the ignition off, wait a few seconds, on then hit the start and its back to 1-3 seconds before it catches. i thought maybe if the fuel pump was cutting out (though as per above seems unlikely - maybe fuel pressure sensor fault...?) and the engine was starving, then taking a few seconds longer to start than it would after a normal shutdown due to time taken for the pump to send fuel to the injectors.

is it possible that it IS fuel pump after all? that the bike warms up, then the fuel pump warms up and begins to fail? i keep ruling out fuel pump because of the total loss of power i.e. engine failure. its not gradual, and the bike does not drop to idle - just dies.

anyway, i'll keep chipping away. still got 2 weeks left on the visa...

thanks guys
dave

AliBaba 11 May 2010 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajg (Post 288470)
ok...

i haven't managed to figure where the lambda sensor is (or what it looks like...). i will disconnect it (stuttgart reckon i can ride without it)

Number 5:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/y/x/269.png

docsherlock 11 May 2010 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0ng00se (Post 288467)
Hi Docsherlock,

How do one reboot the firmware ? I am having similar stalling issues which started a few weeks ago, went away, but came back again today. Took of my side stand last night, cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40 and this morning it seemed fine, although it was only an 8 mile commute into work.

We are also leaving London towards Cape Town down the East Coast in September this year and I think I will now invest in a GS-911 and get to grips with it before we leave and also take it along on the trip.

dajg, I am interested to see how you get on and if you find a fix ... I will be following this thread closely ...

This was posted on Advrider & F800Riders about rebooting the computer:

they suggested resetting computer by holding positive & negative battery cables together,

"Don't know if it matters or not but the way i have been instructed to do this is to leave the positive cable connected to the battery then short the negative cable to the positive cable/battery terminal for approximately 10 minutes."

"Here is a wild guess, after having problems and refusing to start for some time, the bike reboots itself. Anyone with an iPod is likely familiar with this. If the bike rebooted itself, this would also explain bad fuel economy for the next 100 to 500 miles, depending on riding style and conditions.

As I said before, my bike did this and disconnecting a battery cable and shorting it to the other battery cable allowed the bike to start right up. 1,200 miles since and no problems, other then slightly off fuel economy for the next few miles (few because I drove it through a ride cycle)

If someone has this problem, give a reboot a shot, nothing to loose, just make sure all wires are disconnected from one battery terminal and then short them to the other battery terminal that still has wires connected to it. Do make sure one battery terminal has absolutely NO wires touching it, and this is 100% safe.

This is the official BMW method of rebooting the onboard computers, though normally the techs at the dealer do it."

I think you are wise to take a GS911 and netbook/bluetooth phone and a BMW service manual; I believe Haynes are publishing a manual in the Autumn. I also wonder whether you should take a spare side stand switch, some spare fuel injectors a master chain link and riveting tool, lambda sensor and fuel pump controller, perhaps off a crashed bike? depends on the cost I guess, but these seem to be the bits causing trouble though one gets a skewed view on the internet of just how common this stuff actually is. I would take the tool, manual and chain spares and make sure I had a good logistical chain in place for spares to be fed-exed out should I need them - at least you can diagnose the problem with the GS911 and netbook/phone.....

I'd also consider taking a spare battery kept topped up by a solar charger and stick it in the top-box - but then I am a bit paranoid......

Ride safe,

Sherlock

docsherlock 11 May 2010 15:25

Also have a look at this thread on Advrider

My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!! - ADVrider

I think the computer re-booting is described in there somewhere by Joel Wisman who is a very helpful BMW tech - you could probably email him and ask him about it - he's a top bloke on the forum.

Hope that helps,

Sherlock

m0ng00se 11 May 2010 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docsherlock (Post 288482)
Also have a look at this thread on Advrider

My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!! - ADVrider

I think the computer re-booting is described in there somewhere by Joel Wisman who is a very helpful BMW tech - you could probably email him and ask him about it - he's a top bloke on the forum.

Hope that helps,

Sherlock

Cool, thanks guys. I have found that post on ADV, thanks. I am going to try and reset my computer tonight when I get home as I don't want to do it at work and then mess something up so I can't get home ;)

I also suspect fuel pump on mine actually ... I see a new fuel pump assembly is around £280, so will have to get that replaced under warranty. I just went down and looked at the fuel pump under the seat and wires are loose that should be fastened with cable ties. Suspect this was removed and/or worked on during my latest engine rebuilt around 14.5k miles. I also noticed some white residue on the fuel pump electronics ... not sure why ???

Sherlock .. yeah that is a lot of spares, not sure we will be taking so much with us :) It's funny as mine first cut out a few weeks ago after leaving my bike on a slight incline with little fuel in it ... I managed to get to a petrol station and filled up all the way taking only about 11litres, so there was at least 4-5 litres in the tank. I thought because of the incline and low fuel, it might have sucked some air ? After filling up nothing running fine for weeks until 2 days ago when it didn't wanna start first time .. had to slightly give it some throttle while cranking ... yesterday was even worse.

Engine completely died while riding .. about 10 times. Sometimes it starts back up immediately, sometimes it doesn't. Stopped and waited for a while with the bike on the centre stand, started back up and rode home with no problems although slightly nervous in the fast lane of a motorway :mchappy:

Keep us updated on your progress dajg !!

dajg 11 May 2010 16:10

mogoose...

does your bike go ok for 20-50km before it dies the first time, then you restart and it dies 10 times again in the next 20km...?

does it die those 10 times (after the first occurance that day) when you back off the throttle...? (i don't mean back to idle, i mean say from 4000 revs to 3000 etc).

because that is my problem.

what changes after 20-30km? is the fuel pump hot or something? the bike would reach normal operating temp after a couple of k's.

the first 20-30k's i do here on a test ride after fiddling with something, i do in heavy traffic - lots of gear changes, fan can be on, and obviously i hammer the throttle to try get it to fail (which it does eventually...)

then after the first failure, i get failure every time i back off the throttle. i can shift right up to 6th and 120kmh but then as i slow down it goes on me.

i try keep the throttle in the same position and just use the clutch & gear down but i struggle with using the front brake while i am holding the throttle...

thanks
d

m0ng00se 11 May 2010 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajg (Post 288492)
mogoose...

does your bike go ok for 20-50km before it dies the first time, then you restart and it dies 10 times again in the next 20km...?

does it die those 10 times (after the first occurance that day) when you back off the throttle...? (i don't mean back to idle, i mean say from 4000 revs to 3000 etc).

because that is my problem.

what changes after 20-30km? is the fuel pump hot or something? the bike would reach normal operating temp after a couple of k's.

the first 20-30k's i do here on a test ride after fiddling with something, i do in heavy traffic - lots of gear changes, fan can be on, and obviously i hammer the throttle to try get it to fail (which it does eventually...)

then after the first failure, i get failure every time i back off the throttle. i can shift right up to 6th and 120kmh but then as i slow down it goes on me.

i try keep the throttle in the same position and just use the clutch & gear down but i struggle with using the front brake while i am holding the throttle...

thanks
d

Almost exactly .. started fine, heavy traffic, probably after only 10km .. sometimes hard acceleration to get out of traffic, etc ... and then it just died. After that it did it all the time until I left it for a while and then started back up and was fine for probably another 10-20km to get home.

This morning started first time .. all the way to work, although slightly lower temperature, no problems. Did that side kick switch clean after reading about Tims trouble with the side kick switch last night. Will be interesting to see if it fails on my way home later.

I wouldn't say that its always on closing the throttle ... mine seems to happen when I shift up from 1st into 2nd or even as far as into 3rd ... or thinking about it now .. might actually be when I close the throttle to shift into 2nd ... not sure :confused1:

I am booked into the dealership for next week Tuesday and they said they will keep it for the day, maybe they pick something up on the diags as I will not have received my GS911 before then ... Will let you know once I am any wiser.

Toyark 11 May 2010 16:42

JUST A THOUGHT.....
could it be the same grief R1200GS owners had with the Fuel Pump ECU... number 14 on diagram? I wonder?

Temporarily resolved (in the absence of a spare) with the FPC (Fuel Pump Controller) bypass? it could be that it is 'not dead yet but dying'
Check the connections to it first!
if not,
WITHOUT destroying yours, it may well be worth trying the bypass to see if that solves the problem. It sounds complicated but it isn't
It consists of using the original blue plug that has 2 wires on it (on my 1200) and connecting a live to one and negative to the other and feeding electricity straight from battery
I do not know your bike but without cutting the wires, it may be worth scraping naked each wire and trying this- If it does not work, then tape up again.

If there are no plugs and if the fpc plugs directly into the unit, might be worth taking out the FPC (14) and carefully (you don't want a short) putting a 12volt supply to the terminals.
The result of a FPC bypass is that your fuel pump will :
1- run continuously
2- less fuel economy

If this method is successful - it would be useful to put a switch or in line fuse that you can remove to turn the pump off manually.

Tim Cullis 11 May 2010 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajg
i'll try some chain lube or wd40 on the side stand switch but i don't think this is the problem.

That won't give you a definitive answer and at the moment you need to concentrate on eliminating possible problems in order to narrow down the field.

Remove the side stand switch completely. You disconnect the switch by using an 8mm socket on the nut at the bottom, then it comes loose. It's a bit like a coiled watch spring. There's a stud that rotates with the stand. All you do is to experiment to find out what positions it runs in, then gaffer tape the stud in the middle of the settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0ng00se (Post 288491)
I also noticed some white residue on the fuel pump electronics ...

If you are talking about white residue on the aluminium heat sink, this is to be expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrand (Post 288500)
... fuel pump controller...

There's only been one recorded occurence of a fuel pump failure on a F800xx bike and the symptoms are totally different. If you want to see how I bypassed a 1200GSA, checkout post #24 on this AdvRider thread (which doesn't need a switch to control it).

Tim

dajg 12 May 2010 10:13

ok so today i disconnected both the O2 sensor which i think is the same as the lambda sensor, and the air temperature sensor (the one sticking out of the airbox).

i did NOT unscrew the O2 sensor from the exhaust - its 22mm and the largest spanner i have is 21mm - i don't reckon i need to remove it, unless the cat is blocked which i highly doubt given exhaust pressure & nature of fault.

managed less than 4km before the bike stalled...

i continued on & changed the oil & oil filter (was due). return to camp stalled another 4 times in 6km.

gonna disconnect the side stand now. not confident but seems to be a common problem.

next i will try disconnecting the idle actuator valve.

i've already tried to bypass the fuel pump electronics & the bike ran worse. however maybe i fkd it up so i will try it again this afternoon.

either today or tomorrow i will track down a car battery & leads to throw on the rear rack & try running the bike from this, maybe its the dead battery cell even with a 13+v reading on the multimetre.

apparently there is a bmw car dealer in north khartoum. think its too far for the bike to make it but i'll check it out with a taxi & see if they have a computer.

thanks for your continuing support guys.

dave

m0ng00se 12 May 2010 10:26

Hi Dave .. good luck for today. Check this video (if you can): YouTube - F800GS Stalling

I emailed this guy and for him it was his fuel pump ... extract from his email below:

"....Mine was all about hot temperatures and turned out to be a bad fuel pump NOT fuel pump electronics. It was only detected when I rode the bike around for an hour in the Denver heat until it started to stall and the tech put a pressure gauge on it. He found that it was spiking and dropping uncontrollably. New fuel pump and all's been well but was a real challenge for me to get them to diagnose it."

Let us know how you get on ...

AliBaba 12 May 2010 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajg (Post 288598)
apparently there is a bmw car dealer in north khartoum. think its too far for the bike to make it but i'll check it out with a taxi & see if they have a computer.

There used to be one pretty close to the Blue Nile Sailing Club, I have never visited it but I saw it on my nightly walks.
They might have a fuel-pump you can try, it doesn't have to be bike-specific.

dave ett 12 May 2010 11:44

Another long shot for you:

If you've been taking on grotty fuel, it may be that the fuel filter is clogging.

Happened to me many years ago on an old BMW car (2002). The tank was full of sediment which sank to the bottom at rest, but stirred up and clogged the filter once you drove for half an hour or so. Engine would die and not restart / start and run badly until it'd been stood for a while.

I've poured over the parts manual and there doesn't seem to be a seperate fuel filter, so I'm assuming it's integral to the pump.

Might be worth pulling the fuel pump out and checking it?

Can post pics of the procedure if you need them...

Tim Cullis 12 May 2010 12:54

Yes, O2 sensor and lambda probe are one and the same.

I doubt it's the battery as the symptoms are different and your voltage readings seem OK, see posts #43 and #53 in electrical problem in Morocco, however it's worth trying so you can at least eliminate it as a possibility.

I also doubt it's a blocked fuel filter given the comments from my consultant engineer friend--the symptoms are the wrong way round for this. But again, if you are able to work out how to access the filter it would be worth checking to eliminate it as a possibility.

Crossing fingers and toes for you. :)

Tim

*Touring Ted* 12 May 2010 17:24

This could easily be the fuel pump. The bike relies on a high pressure fuel feed and with the pump playing up, you're not getting this.

It would explain the stalling but not the throttle position. You would expect the bike to run better at low speeds/half throttle than at open throttle but it's no exact science.

Engine management issues are a totaly nightmare (as you now know) on the road.

Can you get hold of the official workshop manual ?? They often have structrured flowchart electrical checks for diagnosis.

dajg 12 May 2010 20:45

ok to clarify

i didn't test ride the bike with the throttle positioning sensor unplugged - i got the bike to stall (was already hot) on the centre stand at camp after a few minutes of playing with the throttle (like 3000 revs then back off a bit). however the tacho etc still works and engine speed increases which to me indicates the bike will run on road no probs... until it stalls...

the O2 sensor & air temp disconnected didn't affect the test ride today - still had stalling.

on the way down from wadi halfa (ferry crossing) to donglar (400km into sudan) i bought 4L of fuel from a plastic bottle. was ok. i filled up 10L from another bikers jerry can - was 95 octane from turkey - maybe a month old - bike was fine. filled up in town with local fuel - bike was fine. however on the way to donglar i ran out of fuel twice... first time bike indicated 6km to run, second time 47km to run. anyway, over 300km and two top-ups later i had the first stall.

it was cruising up behind my mates bike as he stopped to ask directions. i was in neutral. this happened several times but i figured it was heat. always at low rpms. normally goes away after i fill up.

back in vientiane (see my 1st or 2nd post on adv around the 22k mark the bike stalled in town 180km after last fill up. bike started again on the side of road, died, started, died, i coasted in to petrol station, filled up, bike fine for 2000+km to bangkok. died in town after a 600km day while i was on way to hotel. restart, die, restart, die, fill up, no problems. when it died in town i had a half tank. both vte & bkk were great weather, maybe low 30 deg c. many thousands of k's later bike stalled once in pakistan, cold weather, half tank, filled up, no probs. hot weather coast of egypt, bike stalled few times in 2 days always low power. so i thought that it didn't like half a tank in hot weather. i never really diagnosed anything but the incidents were so isolated i didn't worry about it. adding fuel always fixed the problem.

i've never had a whoosh sound opening the tank. i am sure the vent system and breathers are fine.

so - last friday.

crusing along in 6th, no traffic, constant rpm, perfect riding conditions, etc etc and the bike dies. i turn ignition off, then on, hit start, away i go. fine for over 100km before it happens again. i figure its low petrol so i buy more.

no good. i figure the petrol is bad so i tip the bike and empty the whole tank. nearly stand the bike upside down. then i fill from my mates jerry which has fuel from donglar which we know was good (mates on a ktm640). he had rejetted to take 80 octane and had experienced less than normal power on the fuel here but maybe its hot air temp, and less than the 92 octane we were buying in egypt.

after changing the fuel the bike has been cooling for a while. so then i'm fine for 40km before it stalls again. then the problem is really bad... the bike is stalling whenever i back off the throttle.

ride from cold, bike is fine for 20km then at constant rpm the engine stops dead. restart, sometimes need to turn ignition off, sometimes ok with starter. i never use throttle to start. using throttle after the bike cuts out does nothing - its already dead.

after the first 20km on cold bike, the engine dies every time i back off the throttle (i.e. traffic, downhill etc.) hence i tried to make khartoum by holding 4000rpm in 3rd gear and using clutch to back off etc. though bike still died regularly i.e. every 5km max.

the rpm guage drops back normally until i pull the clutch and it obviously goes to zero.

from camp its 5km to my test ground, then i can cruise up and down without to much interuption until the bike stalls after testing something. the 5-20km return isn't nice on the battery - can stall up to 10-12 times (traffic).

today i read the 25 pages of adv "800 stalls like i run out of gas..." etc. and there are about 4 guys who had the same symptoms. there is no water in the airbox (laugh - its 45 deg here last couple days, and egypt not much better). my bike NEVER stalled in rain, and in north pakistan, central iran, malaysia and thailand during monsoon, turkey, bulgaria & hungary in snow & rain never bothered the bike a bit (though my left hand froze clearing ice from the visor...). also, its australian bike so no charcoal canister. i used to overfill the tank, but the last 5 days i haven't filled up (except octane boost & injection cleaner). pretty sure the bike vented the fuel straight on to the ground though after an overfill and leaving out in the sun.

theres no vacuum on the tank. rode with the cap open. the air intakes are fine. i replaced the foam airfilter & put plastic bottle tops on the ends of the intakes. plenty of air getting in. the breather hoses look fine. the plugs are 2 days old, and the ones from germany service 11k ago also looked great. leads are good. battery reading is good.

i've been putting it off because bike stalls in neutral on centre stand, but tomorrow finally i will disconnect the side stand.

today the bike got a good wash & i pulled the radiator & fan out to clean fan of sand, grit etc. fan runs fine, etc etc.

i am out of ideas. germany should be sending a new throttle positioning sensor and a fuel pump friday (bank hol thurs)... which might arrive sometime next week... tomorrow i will go shopping for a pump from a kia rio which i think will fit the size & spec & give this a go.

also, on the "stalling" link, clutch doesn't affect the stall, and it happens through the rev range, and only stalls from idle when i have it on the centre stand for testing. usually, it dies while producing power, long before dropping back to idle...

thanks again
d

*Touring Ted* 12 May 2010 20:54

Does the bike have a knock sensor ?? Low quality fuel causing the management system to shut down to prevent engine damage.

dajg 12 May 2010 21:04

no knock sensor, no fuel filter, just a mesh thing (forget the term) buried in the pump somewhere.

i have the tech dvd but its only good for showing how to remove some parts. no troubleshoot or wiring diagrams.

Mickey D 12 May 2010 21:32

Great write up! I'm thinking clogged fuel filter in fuel pump or marginal fuel pump. Some fuel pumps allow access to the filter, some do not.

Is there any way to check fuel pump output? Should pump a certain amount in a minute or 30 seconds or something like that. If the pump is pumping at factory spec, then i'm out of ideas. I like the Kia fuel pump idea!

After you solve this (and you WILL!) I'd give your battery a nice long trickle charge to get it up to 100%.

Good hunting!

dajg 12 May 2010 21:36

don't think i can get at the fuel filter.. without damaging seals etc.

the pump output can be measured with a pressure guage which i don't have.

the other way - disconnect one end etc - might be ok, if i knew where to find the flow rate i am supposed to have.

when i say the kia pump should work, it worked in a guys 05 aprilla 650cc (fuel injected) here, and he reckons the terminals look identical, and the space measured out ok. he paid 50 bucks... so tomorrow i go shopping.

if germany comes good i think i can have DHL reroute to addis or nairobi and have chris at jungle junction fit the spec pump if i make it....

*Touring Ted* 12 May 2010 21:41

The problem with swapping out the fuel pump with another one is the fuel pressure.

FI systems need a constant, set pressure to work properly to prime the rail (not sure if the new F650 has a rail though)

I think you're just best off waiting for the new parts from Germany, put you feet up and enjoy the scenery.

I'd definately be scouring the internet looking for the workshop manual though. The dealers don't work out of memory. It's all out the book or off the computer. You need to be an auto electrician/electrical engineer to work on newer bikes. They're more like computers than motorcycles. :thumbdown:

palace15 12 May 2010 22:14

For a manual try Carl Salter and other random rubbish, Wheels PCDs, Free Service Manuals, Free PDF Downloads hope this helps.

m0ng00se 13 May 2010 00:34

Dajg .. since I cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40, it has not happened to me again. Bike ran fine yesterday and today, but since yours cut out even in N and on the centre stand, I don't think its the switch in your case. Good luck, let us know if the fuel pump solves it.

Other question for you, is it true that they do not allow motorcycles on the passenger ferry between Aswan and Wadi Halfa any more ? Do you have to wait for a barge ?

Touring Ted, I see you plan to leave in September down towards Cape Town ? We are also leaving September from London .. maybe we can exchange some details. We are 3 riders, 2 x F800GS and 1 x F650GS (single).

Coming back to the stalling .. I think my petrol pump is slowly on it's way out If this is the fix for you dajg, then I might just get my petrol pump replaced just before we leave to be safe. I do not have time for any lengthy break downs in Africa as I only have 2 months off work ...

Will check this thread tomorrow again ... good night !

dajg 13 May 2010 09:20

copied from adv rider - few other suggestions on the link
total power failure f650 twin - stuck in khartoum - Page 4 - ADVrider

righto..

disconnected the fuel pressure sensor. the bike ran but...
- wouldn't reach 2000rpm
- only spiked over 1500rpm when i hit the throttle
- only happy to idle - no power.
- reconnected to try something else

disconnected the throttle positioning sensor again
- first, while the bike was running. it quit instantly. plugged it in, restarted ok
- second disconnect before restart. bike would idle at 2000rpm, no lower
- restarted, and bike idles at 1250-1500rpm and doesn't like it - constant surging sound
- test ride 30km:
= stalled first time the cops pulled me over, and twice trying to get to the side of the road (was a motorcade coming)
= second time cop pulled me over because i'd done 7 laps of the street, bike kept running but as i pulled away somthing was making a 'whiring' sound which i didn't like. turned bike off, then on, no whirring, return to base.
= no typical stalling though i hadn't taken the bike up to 5th gear for a good solid stretch - was always slowing, turning, dodging traffic.

so - i think its not the fuel pressure sensor or the throttle positioning sensor. the bike is much happier with these plugged in.

anyone have accurate info on the requirements of the fuel pump? i will try track one down here, earliest from DHL will be early-mid next week (dispatch late tomorrow).

did i mention theres no beer here?

cheers
d

Tim Cullis 13 May 2010 13:08

You said yesterday (on AdvRider) that you were about to disconnect the side stand switch. How did this go? Any difference?

Tim

Toyark 13 May 2010 13:58

Dajg
Might be worth your while, since you are stopped, to order the '911' dongle from Hex.
It would have saved you a great deal of guessing and work.
Good luck

dajg 13 May 2010 18:33

ok i am not 100% sure i got this right - side stand...

i undid the 8mm nut, pulled the selector / switch whatever off the mount adjacent the side stand.

i cleaned this - was pretty grotty. i sprayed it with chain lube (no wd40 in the kit...)

i put it most of the way back on... rounded the nut... its not tight, maybe a 2mm gap.

i didn't tape anything or play with any wiring. what is supposed to be bypassed?

went for a ride anyway, same problem still occuring. sometimes starter button works, sometimes need to turn ignition off then back on.

the stalling occurs in neutral on the centre stand once the bike is hot, so i didn't have high hopes that the side stand was the problem.

gonna pull the fuel pump out tomorrow - is there anything to be careful of?

incidently i seem to have done a poor job of reinstalling the fan after i pulled out the radiator to clean it, as it was hitting something or other and making a raquet tonight while i was playing with the bike. whoops.

later,
d

Tim Cullis 13 May 2010 21:50

Per post #28 above

Quote:

Remove the side stand switch completely. You disconnect the switch by using an 8mm socket on the nut at the bottom, then it comes loose. It's a bit like a coiled watch spring. There's a stud that rotates with the stand. All you do is to experiment to find out what positions it runs in, then gaffer tape the stud in the middle of the settings.
You're possibly right that it's not the cause of the problem, but as yet you've not eliminated it. You leave the side stand assembly dangling, i.e. once the switch is gaffer taped into a fixed position you just seal everything up, rather than reassembling.

Even this didn't prevent the problem long term and the German dealer when I was on my way to Poland disconnected everything which finally solved it. Not sure what you have to do with the wires though.

dave ett 16 May 2010 16:02

Any updates?

dajg 16 May 2010 18:39

ok.

so i pulled out the fuel pump assembly.

the fuel pump appears to be VERY common. one of the bikers here (R6 & AT) took me to the "new parts" section of town. in the first shop they had a pump made in PRC from vehicle unknown for 80 sudanese pounds (about $30USD) and a hyundai accent made in s korea for 170 pounds. went with the hyundai. second shop had a generic brand from korea for 160 pounds. all look pretty much the same as the bosch from the bmw.

hardest part was removing the end of the fuel hose from the flanges of the pump. (the hose has smooth ends and concertina in the middle so can't be cut & shortened or re-joined) the bosch has 3 or 4 flanges and is made of bakerlite or alloy i think, not plastic. the alternates are plastic with 1 flange. the end of the hose which fits into the filter has a single use clamp, the end to the pump has no clamp but some glue and the flanges. pliars, vice grips, screwdrivers all no good. not wanting the scars, i paid a mechanic who had done it before, 10 pounds to heat the hose with a cigarette lighter (hot water hadn't worked for me). 0.5 pounds for a 12mm hose clamp. all up, $67. the new spark plugs, 4 bottles of octane booster & 1 of injection cleaner were about the same...

the hose is plastic & i couldn't find a replacement. i assume the bosch pump comes supplied with the hose. as the hose is submersible i didn't want to substitute with rubber hose. luckily the original wasn't too badly damaged after having a go at it with tools trying to remove...

re-assembled the bike & did 30km in 46 deg this afternoon no probs. will try put another 50km on it tonight or 100km in the morning before i pack up camp... with a bit of luck i'll be having a cold one in gondar, ethiopia (780km from khartoum), tuesday night...

incidently i have no idea what pressure or fuel flow i was supposed to achieve with the stock pump but i assume if i'm averaging 4L/100km the hyundai accent is gonna be using more than this so it should be more than adequate. on the test ride today the fuel consumption was fine.

if this doesn't work... i am out of ideas. probably fly it to the cape or buy a trailer & hook up to an overlander truck south. i'll be ordering a GS911 first opportunity.

so... hopefully i am out of the woods.

thanks for all the suggestions guys, i'll update this again either tomorrow :helpsmilie: or in a few days :thumbup1:

safe travels
dave

*Touring Ted* 16 May 2010 19:43

Im glad your problem is sorted (for now anyway) !!

As powerful and smooth these new computer based bikes are, it shows that simplicity really is best for overland machines. Shit loads cheaper if things do go wrong too.

Safe riding !!

Tim Cullis 16 May 2010 21:27

Bit like 'Ice cold in Alex' then? Enjoy it!

Tim

dave ett 16 May 2010 22:58

Great to hear, fingers crossed you've fixed the problem and not just a sypmtom!

Threewheelbonnie 17 May 2010 07:15

Glad you're sorted. Enjoy that beer.

As for simplicity, I'd guess finding say a carb diaphragm for an airhead would be just as tough especially when they aren't used on Korean cars. It's what you know and what bits you can buy, doesn't matter about the technology IMHO.

Andy

*Touring Ted* 17 May 2010 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie (Post 289235)
Glad you're sorted. Enjoy that beer.

As for simplicity, I'd guess finding say a carb diaphragm for an airhead would be just as tough especially when they aren't used on Korean cars. It's what you know and what bits you can buy, doesn't matter about the technology IMHO.

Andy

True.. But a hell of a lot simpler to diagnose in the first place. Poor Dajg has probably been going mad checking sensors here, relays there etc etc !

A spare carb diaphram is easier to carry than a suitcase full of electronic gubbins :rolleyes2:

Anyway, off topic ! My bad !


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