Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > BMW Tech
BMW Tech BMW Tech Forum - For Questions specific and of interest to BMW riders only.
Photo by Daniel Rintz, Himba children, Namibia

The only impossible journey
is the one
you never begin

Photo by Daniel Rintz,
Himba children, Namibia



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 10 May 2010
Tim Cullis's Avatar
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London and Granada Altiplano
Posts: 3,078
I've been on to a friend who's a consultant engineer on automotive side. Given the symptoms (OK with open throttle, problems with partial throttle), he reckons it's nothing to do with air or fuel filters, nor with blocked injectors, and that it's likely to be something to do with engine management.

We discussed the O2 sensor likelihood and he concurs that under fully open throttle the sensor is ignored. He's concerned that if the sensor is detached the system might go into a 'limp home' mode with substantially reduced power. Mind you, given your bike's current state, that might be an improvement.

I'll do some more digging and see what I can find.

Tim
__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live,"
Irving Mather (1892-1966)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10 May 2010
AliBaba's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,379
If you can get a multimeter it's possible to meassure the signal from the O2-sensor, it should be very low when engine not running and increase to at least 0.4V when the engine has idled for a while.
Even in Khartoum it should be possible to get an O2-sensor it doesn't have to be the original. There is (or was) a BMW-dealer close to the Sailing club and I guess there should be other dealers around.

But as Tim says try to disconnect it and see what happens. Is there a way to reset the ECU or TPS-signals?

It might be smart to fix the sidestand-issue before you start messing with the O2-sensor.

Edit:
Some more info: Bosch lambda sensor - Checking and trouble-shooting
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: BC, sometimes
Posts: 578
I would re-boot the firmware before doing anything else, esp given the preceding advice this is likely to be an engine management problem.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11 May 2010
m0ng00se's Avatar
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docsherlock View Post
I would re-boot the firmware before doing anything else, esp given the preceding advice this is likely to be an engine management problem.
Hi Docsherlock,

How do one reboot the firmware ? I am having similar stalling issues which started a few weeks ago, went away, but came back again today. Took of my side stand last night, cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40 and this morning it seemed fine, although it was only an 8 mile commute into work.

We are also leaving London towards Cape Town down the East Coast in September this year and I think I will now invest in a GS-911 and get to grips with it before we leave and also take it along on the trip.

dajg, I am interested to see how you get on and if you find a fix ... I will be following this thread closely ...
__________________
--
London to Cape Town 2010 - http://bit.ly/uk2za
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: on the road
Posts: 174
ok...

so i disconnected the throttle positioning sensor. the bike still runs, and the stalling issue is the same however the engine warning and the general warning lights came on.

i tracked down a bottle of octane booster!! ok so on the other side of the street 60 west giraf from the kenyan embassy go south 500m look for "my car" shop they have a bunch of stuff.

however, i added the octane booster but no improvement.

i'll try some chain lube or wd40 on the side stand switch but i don't think this is the problem.

once the bike is hot i can replicate the problem on the centre stand at camp. i pulled the seat off and listened to the fuel pump. sounds good, and runs for 1-1.5 seconds AFTER the engine dies so i think pump is ok.

i haven't managed to figure where the lambda sensor is (or what it looks like...). i will disconnect it (stuttgart reckon i can ride without it) likewise the engine temperature guage (when i find that too... the tech DVD is really rubbish for diagnostics or locating parts).

i'll give the battery a try.

can anyone explain to me how the fuel pump starts? after stall, it takes 3-5 seconds for the engine to catch when i hit the starter button. sometimes i have to turn the ignition off, wait a few seconds, on then hit the start and its back to 1-3 seconds before it catches. i thought maybe if the fuel pump was cutting out (though as per above seems unlikely - maybe fuel pressure sensor fault...?) and the engine was starving, then taking a few seconds longer to start than it would after a normal shutdown due to time taken for the pump to send fuel to the injectors.

is it possible that it IS fuel pump after all? that the bike warms up, then the fuel pump warms up and begins to fail? i keep ruling out fuel pump because of the total loss of power i.e. engine failure. its not gradual, and the bike does not drop to idle - just dies.

anyway, i'll keep chipping away. still got 2 weeks left on the visa...

thanks guys
dave
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11 May 2010
AliBaba's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajg View Post
ok...

i haven't managed to figure where the lambda sensor is (or what it looks like...). i will disconnect it (stuttgart reckon i can ride without it)
Number 5:
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: BC, sometimes
Posts: 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ng00se View Post
Hi Docsherlock,

How do one reboot the firmware ? I am having similar stalling issues which started a few weeks ago, went away, but came back again today. Took of my side stand last night, cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40 and this morning it seemed fine, although it was only an 8 mile commute into work.

We are also leaving London towards Cape Town down the East Coast in September this year and I think I will now invest in a GS-911 and get to grips with it before we leave and also take it along on the trip.

dajg, I am interested to see how you get on and if you find a fix ... I will be following this thread closely ...
This was posted on Advrider & F800Riders about rebooting the computer:

they suggested resetting computer by holding positive & negative battery cables together,

"Don't know if it matters or not but the way i have been instructed to do this is to leave the positive cable connected to the battery then short the negative cable to the positive cable/battery terminal for approximately 10 minutes."

"Here is a wild guess, after having problems and refusing to start for some time, the bike reboots itself. Anyone with an iPod is likely familiar with this. If the bike rebooted itself, this would also explain bad fuel economy for the next 100 to 500 miles, depending on riding style and conditions.

As I said before, my bike did this and disconnecting a battery cable and shorting it to the other battery cable allowed the bike to start right up. 1,200 miles since and no problems, other then slightly off fuel economy for the next few miles (few because I drove it through a ride cycle)

If someone has this problem, give a reboot a shot, nothing to loose, just make sure all wires are disconnected from one battery terminal and then short them to the other battery terminal that still has wires connected to it. Do make sure one battery terminal has absolutely NO wires touching it, and this is 100% safe.

This is the official BMW method of rebooting the onboard computers, though normally the techs at the dealer do it."

I think you are wise to take a GS911 and netbook/bluetooth phone and a BMW service manual; I believe Haynes are publishing a manual in the Autumn. I also wonder whether you should take a spare side stand switch, some spare fuel injectors a master chain link and riveting tool, lambda sensor and fuel pump controller, perhaps off a crashed bike? depends on the cost I guess, but these seem to be the bits causing trouble though one gets a skewed view on the internet of just how common this stuff actually is. I would take the tool, manual and chain spares and make sure I had a good logistical chain in place for spares to be fed-exed out should I need them - at least you can diagnose the problem with the GS911 and netbook/phone.....

I'd also consider taking a spare battery kept topped up by a solar charger and stick it in the top-box - but then I am a bit paranoid......

Ride safe,

Sherlock
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: BC, sometimes
Posts: 578
Also have a look at this thread on Advrider

My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!! - ADVrider

I think the computer re-booting is described in there somewhere by Joel Wisman who is a very helpful BMW tech - you could probably email him and ask him about it - he's a top bloke on the forum.

Hope that helps,

Sherlock
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11 May 2010
m0ng00se's Avatar
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docsherlock View Post
Also have a look at this thread on Advrider

My F800gs STALLS LIKE ITS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! PLEASE HELP!! - ADVrider

I think the computer re-booting is described in there somewhere by Joel Wisman who is a very helpful BMW tech - you could probably email him and ask him about it - he's a top bloke on the forum.

Hope that helps,

Sherlock
Cool, thanks guys. I have found that post on ADV, thanks. I am going to try and reset my computer tonight when I get home as I don't want to do it at work and then mess something up so I can't get home

I also suspect fuel pump on mine actually ... I see a new fuel pump assembly is around £280, so will have to get that replaced under warranty. I just went down and looked at the fuel pump under the seat and wires are loose that should be fastened with cable ties. Suspect this was removed and/or worked on during my latest engine rebuilt around 14.5k miles. I also noticed some white residue on the fuel pump electronics ... not sure why ???

Sherlock .. yeah that is a lot of spares, not sure we will be taking so much with us It's funny as mine first cut out a few weeks ago after leaving my bike on a slight incline with little fuel in it ... I managed to get to a petrol station and filled up all the way taking only about 11litres, so there was at least 4-5 litres in the tank. I thought because of the incline and low fuel, it might have sucked some air ? After filling up nothing running fine for weeks until 2 days ago when it didn't wanna start first time .. had to slightly give it some throttle while cranking ... yesterday was even worse.

Engine completely died while riding .. about 10 times. Sometimes it starts back up immediately, sometimes it doesn't. Stopped and waited for a while with the bike on the centre stand, started back up and rode home with no problems although slightly nervous in the fast lane of a motorway

Keep us updated on your progress dajg !!
__________________
--
London to Cape Town 2010 - http://bit.ly/uk2za
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: on the road
Posts: 174
mogoose...

does your bike go ok for 20-50km before it dies the first time, then you restart and it dies 10 times again in the next 20km...?

does it die those 10 times (after the first occurance that day) when you back off the throttle...? (i don't mean back to idle, i mean say from 4000 revs to 3000 etc).

because that is my problem.

what changes after 20-30km? is the fuel pump hot or something? the bike would reach normal operating temp after a couple of k's.

the first 20-30k's i do here on a test ride after fiddling with something, i do in heavy traffic - lots of gear changes, fan can be on, and obviously i hammer the throttle to try get it to fail (which it does eventually...)

then after the first failure, i get failure every time i back off the throttle. i can shift right up to 6th and 120kmh but then as i slow down it goes on me.

i try keep the throttle in the same position and just use the clutch & gear down but i struggle with using the front brake while i am holding the throttle...

thanks
d
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11 May 2010
m0ng00se's Avatar
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajg View Post
mogoose...

does your bike go ok for 20-50km before it dies the first time, then you restart and it dies 10 times again in the next 20km...?

does it die those 10 times (after the first occurance that day) when you back off the throttle...? (i don't mean back to idle, i mean say from 4000 revs to 3000 etc).

because that is my problem.

what changes after 20-30km? is the fuel pump hot or something? the bike would reach normal operating temp after a couple of k's.

the first 20-30k's i do here on a test ride after fiddling with something, i do in heavy traffic - lots of gear changes, fan can be on, and obviously i hammer the throttle to try get it to fail (which it does eventually...)

then after the first failure, i get failure every time i back off the throttle. i can shift right up to 6th and 120kmh but then as i slow down it goes on me.

i try keep the throttle in the same position and just use the clutch & gear down but i struggle with using the front brake while i am holding the throttle...

thanks
d
Almost exactly .. started fine, heavy traffic, probably after only 10km .. sometimes hard acceleration to get out of traffic, etc ... and then it just died. After that it did it all the time until I left it for a while and then started back up and was fine for probably another 10-20km to get home.

This morning started first time .. all the way to work, although slightly lower temperature, no problems. Did that side kick switch clean after reading about Tims trouble with the side kick switch last night. Will be interesting to see if it fails on my way home later.

I wouldn't say that its always on closing the throttle ... mine seems to happen when I shift up from 1st into 2nd or even as far as into 3rd ... or thinking about it now .. might actually be when I close the throttle to shift into 2nd ... not sure :confused1:

I am booked into the dealership for next week Tuesday and they said they will keep it for the day, maybe they pick something up on the diags as I will not have received my GS911 before then ... Will let you know once I am any wiser.
__________________
--
London to Cape Town 2010 - http://bit.ly/uk2za
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11 May 2010
Toyark's Avatar
-
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,341
JUST A THOUGHT.....
could it be the same grief R1200GS owners had with the Fuel Pump ECU... number 14 on diagram? I wonder?

Temporarily resolved (in the absence of a spare) with the FPC (Fuel Pump Controller) bypass? it could be that it is 'not dead yet but dying'
Check the connections to it first!
if not,
WITHOUT destroying yours, it may well be worth trying the bypass to see if that solves the problem. It sounds complicated but it isn't
It consists of using the original blue plug that has 2 wires on it (on my 1200) and connecting a live to one and negative to the other and feeding electricity straight from battery
I do not know your bike but without cutting the wires, it may be worth scraping naked each wire and trying this- If it does not work, then tape up again.

If there are no plugs and if the fpc plugs directly into the unit, might be worth taking out the FPC (14) and carefully (you don't want a short) putting a 12volt supply to the terminals.
The result of a FPC bypass is that your fuel pump will :
1- run continuously
2- less fuel economy

If this method is successful - it would be useful to put a switch or in line fuse that you can remove to turn the pump off manually.

Last edited by Bertrand; 7 Nov 2015 at 22:59.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11 May 2010
Tim Cullis's Avatar
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London and Granada Altiplano
Posts: 3,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajg
i'll try some chain lube or wd40 on the side stand switch but i don't think this is the problem.
That won't give you a definitive answer and at the moment you need to concentrate on eliminating possible problems in order to narrow down the field.

Remove the side stand switch completely. You disconnect the switch by using an 8mm socket on the nut at the bottom, then it comes loose. It's a bit like a coiled watch spring. There's a stud that rotates with the stand. All you do is to experiment to find out what positions it runs in, then gaffer tape the stud in the middle of the settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ng00se View Post
I also noticed some white residue on the fuel pump electronics ...
If you are talking about white residue on the aluminium heat sink, this is to be expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
... fuel pump controller...
There's only been one recorded occurence of a fuel pump failure on a F800xx bike and the symptoms are totally different. If you want to see how I bypassed a 1200GSA, checkout post #24 on this AdvRider thread (which doesn't need a switch to control it).

Tim
__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live,"
Irving Mather (1892-1966)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12 May 2010
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: on the road
Posts: 174
ok so today i disconnected both the O2 sensor which i think is the same as the lambda sensor, and the air temperature sensor (the one sticking out of the airbox).

i did NOT unscrew the O2 sensor from the exhaust - its 22mm and the largest spanner i have is 21mm - i don't reckon i need to remove it, unless the cat is blocked which i highly doubt given exhaust pressure & nature of fault.

managed less than 4km before the bike stalled...

i continued on & changed the oil & oil filter (was due). return to camp stalled another 4 times in 6km.

gonna disconnect the side stand now. not confident but seems to be a common problem.

next i will try disconnecting the idle actuator valve.

i've already tried to bypass the fuel pump electronics & the bike ran worse. however maybe i fkd it up so i will try it again this afternoon.

either today or tomorrow i will track down a car battery & leads to throw on the rear rack & try running the bike from this, maybe its the dead battery cell even with a 13+v reading on the multimetre.

apparently there is a bmw car dealer in north khartoum. think its too far for the bike to make it but i'll check it out with a taxi & see if they have a computer.

thanks for your continuing support guys.

dave
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12 May 2010
m0ng00se's Avatar
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 9
Hi Dave .. good luck for today. Check this video (if you can): YouTube - F800GS Stalling

I emailed this guy and for him it was his fuel pump ... extract from his email below:

"....Mine was all about hot temperatures and turned out to be a bad fuel pump NOT fuel pump electronics. It was only detected when I rode the bike around for an hour in the Denver heat until it started to stall and the tech put a pressure gauge on it. He found that it was spiking and dropping uncontrollably. New fuel pump and all's been well but was a real challenge for me to get them to diagnose it."

Let us know how you get on ...
__________________
--
London to Cape Town 2010 - http://bit.ly/uk2za
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
f650gs twin power failure dajg BMW Tech 7 18 Dec 2009 14:10
Twin F650 gs PaulD BMW Tech 1 9 Aug 2009 10:52
1100GS Tyre Failure - Now Stuck in Frankfurt rabbitson Europe 1 28 Jun 2009 11:25
Wiring in a GPS Power Dupply - F650 Funduro Tony Robson BMW Tech 6 28 Oct 2007 19:47
F650 backfiring/lack of power:HELP!!! d BMW Tech 1 22 May 2001 23:44

 
 

Announcements

Thinking about traveling? Not sure about the whole thing? Watch the HU Achievable Dream Video Trailers and then get ALL the information you need to get inspired and learn how to travel anywhere in the world!

Have YOU ever wondered who has ridden around the world? We did too - and now here's the list of Circumnavigators!
Check it out now
, and add your information if we didn't find you.

Next HU Eventscalendar

HU Event and other updates on the HUBB Forum "Traveller's Advisories" thread.
ALL Dates subject to change.

2024:

Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!

Questions about an event? Ask here

HUBBUK: info

See all event details

 
World's most listened to Adventure Motorbike Show!
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)



Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance.

Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.

Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.

Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!


 

What others say about HU...

"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia

"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK

"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia

"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada

"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa

"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia

"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany

Lots more comments here!



Five books by Graham Field!

Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook

"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.



Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!

New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:03.