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  #1  
Old 17 Oct 2007
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Angry GS Adventure built on a Friday afternoon???

Okay, so I lay out the dough for a 07 GS Adventure, it's my second BMW and I liked my last so good I kept it (K 1200 LT). In 100K's the LT had one hiccup with a fuel pump, but that was about it. My thoughts were that these Beemers truly are a reliable machine, ergo buy an Adventure, no worries. My riding style is quick but not trashy, I respect everything that has to whir about, my downshifts are smooth, I accelerate quickly, but no more than any other rider. In a nutshell I'm a pretty sedate rider. So am I about to grind? Yeah... Less than 10K the transmission input shaft shears in half. I'm told it's an old metallurgical fault going back to the 1150's. BMW treats me like a prince and fixes it up 0$. Now I'm at 16K and I get this little vibration during downshifts that feels like a bum throw out bearing. Today I pull out to pass a cage and whoa! monumental clutch slip! I know that BMW will fix what ails, but jeeze, I'm planning an 08 ride into the North West Territories and my confidence is really starting to wane. I have no grind about warranty etc., my grind is why I would be loosing a clutch at 16K when there's no abuse involved and if BMW knew about metallurgical faults with shafts way-back- when why didn't they nip that one in the bud before 2007!? Somebody tell me I'm being way too picky and just get on with the program. Why do I picture myself on the side of the Dempster with my thumb out...
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  #2  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Good luck Stu!

It's a concept branded BMW owners can't except.
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  #3  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Thumbs down

I have a friend here just up the road who forked out for a new 1150GS Adventure like yours. So far, under warranty he has had the gearbox and clutch replaced once, as well as the output shaft and bearings.... (I think... there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth during the story telling) plus some other stuff...in under 22,000km. Now there is a vibration, like yours. After many phone calls and emails, the local dealer has admitted there is a "design fault" with the Adventure. The extra rear suspension travel loads up the front end of the driveshaft and back of the gearbox. The vibration is particularly bad in fourth gear. BMW's answer? Don't use fourth gear so much!!!
It seems the answer is to fit the ordinary GS shock to reduce travel.. but then the ordinary GS is, well, more ordinary and when you have forked out your hard-earned sheckles for the super-duper-go-anywhere model, that's what you expect to have. And it also ignores the numerous people with warranty claims on the back end out the "ordinary" model as well.

I think your problem is you have gone from without a doubt THE most reliable BMW model range (the K-series) to the one that seems to have had the most finger-pointing model range (oil-head). I know I'm about to dust off the flame-suit, but I have had a very large majority of R1100-1150 owners who have stayed with us or who are local riders I know well that have had serious problems with their transmissions.

And this is from someone who owns three BMWs....

Regards

Nigel in NZ
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Last edited by Nigel Marx; 18 Oct 2007 at 05:37.
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  #4  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Hello again Mollydog.

I see BMW bash-club still holds strong ground? Take off your jap-roundels first before you post. I've had modern jap bikes and I know their strong and weak ponts. Look around how many problems jap bikes have had in their section first, then start searching your "tar-drop in honey pot" in BMW section to start another of your typical BMW bash session while you've never owned modern a BMW yourself, and your only excuse to bash is based on "seeing in person" etc gossip reasons, while I've seen jap engines simply seize in person too. Does it mean it counts?

To Stu: I don't know much about the new 1200s, about their gearboxes and how you change gears. A bit surprising is clutch, where clutch itself is very similar to the older 11xx like I have, since yours is hydraulically operated then very probably wrong amount of oil (parallel to small freeplay on cable clutches that burn out clutches on any bike). This gives me clue what happens in the garage of your BMW dealer - if you aren't that fed up with BMW and want to continue with the bike, then I'd say change your dealer or start servicing the bike your own even better.

Good luck indeed, Margus


Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
Be patient Stu, Margus will be along any time now to tell you are are a liar and to stop making up untrue myths about BMW.

Perhaps he'll tell you you've abused the bike and not taken proper care of it? He's told me all my Jap bikes are junk and fall apart shortly after purchase....even though I've owned about 40 of them with very few probs. I've owned BMW's too and ridden every GS since 1980, but never an Adventure.



According to Margus, your probs are nothing but "rumors" and "inuendo", at least that's what he keeps telling me when I relate nearly identical stories to your's that I've SEEN, IN PERSON, on the many rides I do with my BMW riding buddies.

He thinks I'm a liar and I make stuff up....geez, I guess I better start taking more pictures of breakdowns. Actually, BMW problems have been few in the last three years or so. Early ('04/'05) R12GS's did have issues, and most all the 1150's before them, but the latest R bikes have been pretty good. RT's too. But not perfect.

I go on BMW dealer rides where from 20 to 40 riders show up....on (you guessed it) BMW's, with a few Triumph's in the mix and a few Brand X bikes as well. The dealer has its own "Sag Wagon" as well.

So maybe you did get a Friday bike, or maybe the Turkish workers in Berlin were pissed off about something that week?

I would hang in with your bike if you like riding it but I would begin writing letters NOW to BMW about what the machine's history has been so far. I really like the R12GS, I like the way it rides. Very sporty, confidence inspiring,
fast and you can really load it up and it still goes good. But I'm not fond of shaft drive, paralever or tele-lever....but millions seem ok with it and it seems to work OK most of the time.

In California, and some other US states, we have "Lemon Laws" which can sometimes cover multiple breakdowns/repairs. No idea about Canada. If they do have some program for this, I would research it just in case.

A good friend had a brand new 1150GS which was in the shop so many times in the first year that BMW N.A. offered a full refund (this is VERY unusual) without the owner ever having to contact a lawyer or even mention this. They just told him they would either give him a new bike or his money.... They never could solve the bikes many problems which seemed to cross over to cover many systems...one being, the bike had INCORRECT pistons in it. Two dealers were involved with this. The GS in question was crated up and sent to Germany...on orders from BMW N.America along with every original part. No word beyond that.
That friend now rides an FJR1300, has 7 or 8 other bikes....NO BMW's among them, but does have two KTM dirt bikes...his favorites over all.

Best of luck,

Patrick

Last edited by Margus; 18 Oct 2007 at 07:24.
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  #5  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Sad story!

The first thing that comes into my mind is that when the input-seal on the gearbox broke it leaked a bit oil on the clutch. Do you know if your clutch got checked when they changed the seal? I guess not, because it’s not possible without taking the clutch apart.

A friend of mine had problems with the same seal a few months after he bought the bike, but it has worked well since (60kkm+)
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  #6  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliBaba View Post
Do you know if your clutch got checked when they changed the seal? I guess not, because it’s not possible without taking the clutch apart.
Good guess!

On 11xx boxers you can observe some part of the clutch by taking starter off (very easy job, just two bolts). If it's a visible leak then there should be some oil spilled on the clutch plate corners or on the casing walls nearby.

1200 boxer has the clutch casing closed from the starter side?
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  #7  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margus View Post
Good guess!

On 11xx boxers you can observe some part of the clutch by taking starter off (very easy job, just two bolts). If it's a visible leak then there should be some oil spilled on the clutch plate corners or on the casing walls nearby.

1200 boxer has the clutch casing closed from the starter side?
I guess you can do the same visual inspection on the 1200 as you can on the older ones but if the clutch only slips at high momentum situations (like passing a car in high gear) it might be only small stains of oil on the plate. It is possible that the mechanic cleaned away the rest of the oil.
But I agree, it’s smart to remove the starter and check before you tear it apart!
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  #8  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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My Friday afternoon build. Maybe, sorta, could be...

Thanks Guys, I'm heading to the dealer right now, well as soon as some fog lifts, you can't see your hand in front of your face at the moment, not a good mix between me and some seriously deranged cage pilots.
My driveline issues were not the only ones I have with this machine, although BMW are absolute champions in the warranty biz. OEM fog lights needed a new control package and the bike had to be completely reprogramed, at least that's what I'm told. They didn't work from the day I picked the bike up. There is a 'day one' vibration from one (both??) of the front discs that is now becoming very pronounced at any speed. I thought it was just pads seating in, guess not. Aside from one putt around some very dry grass covered trails the machine has not seen dirt, I still have road tires on it. I'll pass this little gem on this morning to the tech. The last grind - and you'll call me nuts on this one is the alignment... no guff. When I'm rolling along I can look at the top of my down tubes and they don't line up with anything, they're on an angle. I looked at the body work to see if there was a variation one side to the other but I can't see anything that makes sense. The machine appears to run straight, I even had a buddy run it down the road and I followed behind to see if something looked cockeyed. It didn't, but it just pisses me when I see things that are not plumb and true, this is a BMW and that fact is reflected in the $$. Things should be straight darnit. Now before anyone goes "You crashed it!" I did knock the bike over once, in my driveway, I was doing about 0.25 KPH. Very embarrassing...loose gravel and a depression that exceeded the draft of my foot... oops. I dopped my LT in the exact same spot too, you'd think I'd fix that little divot eh?
The long and short of this vent is that by all accounts the GS is a true RTW machine, but that vision is erroding with each trip to the shop and that just sucks because I really don't want to be let down in the far north where bears enjoy "crunchy on the outside - soft and juicy on the inside" motorcyclists. On the plus side when things are right the machine is a dream to ride, seating, performance, handling etc. But then again, so was the tilt and load truck that picked me up the last time...
I'll keep you posted on what happens today.
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  #9  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Question Friday made Gs'er, back from the shop.

Okay Guys, I'm back from the Beemer barn. and I have a headache, oy. Here's a question and I think I know the answer - but it wasn't the one I got from the tech... Clutch slip. The tech took my bike out and afterwards told me that after lifting the front wheel off the ground in 1st, and full power in 2nd offered no clutch slip and that is where you get the most tourque load on the clutch... I didn't say anything because I rarley question someone unless I already know the correct answer. Buuut...My take on maximum torque (on the clutch assembly) would come when you're in top gears, lets say 6th @ 4000 RPM, even 5th @ 4500. Now roll on the right hand. Would you not be entering the maximum engine torque band and offering the largest driveline resistance to that tourque simply by being at speed and under full load? Lifting a front wheel in lower gears is simply driveline gearing and I would say offers little clutch loading compared to a high speed roll on. I really don't mind if you tell me I'm full of it, but counter with a good argument.

Yup, the front disc(s) do need to be replaced, they'll try to get warranty. Bets anyone? Front discs at 16K (99% Highway no less). Go figure. Actually these guys have treated me wonderfully and they have my full confidence, I think.

The tech says that there may be other clutch issues but they won't be able to get me in for a full look at until Nov. 1, which may sound completely daffy, but with my schedule it fits, so I don't mind. It would be a different story if I were in Butthole, North West Territories. On the way home I slipped the clutch a bunch of times, I told myself "hey, this is like riding an automatic! Woohoo, I got that option for free!" Of course if I wanted an automatic I would have bought a Chevy.

Dazed and confused and reving somewhere between 3000 and 6500, ocassionally.
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  #10  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Smile Margus and Molly Dog

I almost forgot this, but you guys are too much. Ha! Anyone can bash anything that has more than two moving parts. Now, if you want to compare the cost of the two moving parts, well, I can see how arguments start...
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  #11  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Torque talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Seaton View Post
Okay Guys, I'm back from the Beemer barn. and I have a headache, oy. Here's a question and I think I know the answer - but it wasn't the one I got from the tech... Clutch slip. The tech took my bike out and afterwards told me that after lifting the front wheel off the ground in 1st, and full power in 2nd offered no clutch slip and that is where you get the most tourque load on the clutch... I didn't say anything because I rarley question someone unless I already know the correct answer. Buuut...My take on maximum torque (on the clutch assembly) would come when you're in top gears, lets say 6th @ 4000 RPM, even 5th @ 4500. Now roll on the right hand. Would you not be entering the maximum engine torque band and offering the largest driveline resistance to that tourque simply by being at speed and under full load? Lifting a front wheel in lower gears is simply driveline gearing and I would say offers little clutch loading compared to a high speed roll on. I really don't mind if you tell me I'm full of it, but counter with a good argument.

Yup, the front disc(s) do need to be replaced, they'll try to get warranty. Bets anyone? Front discs at 16K (99% Highway no less). Go figure. Actually these guys have treated me wonderfully and they have my full confidence, I think.

The tech says that there may be other clutch issues but they won't be able to get me in for a full look at until Nov. 1, which may sound completely daffy, but with my schedule it fits, so I don't mind. It would be a different story if I were in Butthole, North West Territories. On the way home I slipped the clutch a bunch of times, I told myself "hey, this is like riding an automatic! Woohoo, I got that option for free!" Of course if I wanted an automatic I would have bought a Chevy.

Dazed and confused and reving somewhere between 3000 and 6500, ocassionally.

Hi Stu,
Here's my very humble understanding of torque, often mixed up with discussions of horse power so I will stay away from that. A mechanical engineer can come on here and correct me as necessary.

I don't believe that torque has any direct relationship to the speed at which the bike is travelling along the road. It is related to the engine revolutions directly (and the design of the engine); so, you need to see the torque curve for your engine design and see at what revs it develops the maximum torque - you will have an instinctive feel and understanding for this already from riding the bike, but you may not know exactly what the book answer is, any more than I do for any of my bikes. It is torque that produces that surge of acceleration that we all like!

So, the tech guy may be as right as you; he develops the max torque at a low road speed and you do it at a higher road speed; I am taking this "argument" to apply to the torque developed by the engine - I can't see how that is different from the torque passed to the clutch, in the way that you discuss - that's the only way it is transmitted to the rear wheel.

V twins/Boxers etc will generate good amounts of torque low down in the rev range as a rule and then the graph will start to tail off at quite a low rev value compared with, say, the inline 4 cyl bikes.

I hope this helps BTW!
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  #12  
Old 18 Oct 2007
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Just a view

Oh yes, on this business of BMW warranties.

At great risk of someone trying to shoot me down (which does not bother me in the slightest) there is quite a bit of opinion among the UK Beemer riders that I know (and I know a few via the UK BMW club) as follows.

Modern BMW bikes are not really all that great on reliability (no statistics here, remember this is an opinion which has been expressed to me in conversation by owners of BMWs, principally 1200GSs) but what they are good for is the warranty cover. It is the "great" service under warranty which leads to the reliability reputation + the BMW history of earlier models.
There are shedloads of 2 year old 1200GSs on the forecourts of BMW bike shops here in the UK, because the owners change them over every two years and, thereby, have a permanent warranty cover which includes comprehensive breakdown cover anywhere in Europe.

The reason I mention this is because I can't see why your dealer is unsure if work can be done under warranty.
As a reality check (this is definitely known to me) one dealer here in the UK will take every opportunity to carry out work on bikes under warranty and charge that work back to BMW Germany - it is as simple as that over here; they just love poking around on one warranty claim, or while the bike is being serviced, in order to find anything else that can be done under warranty.

IMO then, you put the pressure on your dealer and get everything possible changed/repaired under warranty.

Hope this helps a bit,
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Old 18 Oct 2007
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Haven't read this - only so much of 1200GS stuff I can take!!

I seem to recall that there used to be a website for "BMW lemons" here in the UK - I was aware of it a few years ago when an acquaintance of mine had a lot of bad experiences with a brand new and very expensive Beemer car. Anyway, I can't find it so,
maybe this is of interest:-

Faults on the BMW R1200GS

ps I still like the F650GS that my wife owns, but it is a rotax engine.
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Old 18 Oct 2007
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Question To torque or not too torque

Thanks Dave, you make sense here. I suppose low end torque is the same as high end torque depending on how it's measured. Low end torque could be manifested by a perfect wheelie, unfortunately my high end torque is measured in clutch slip these days. Regardless, I agree, torque is torque and clutch loading is clutch loading. To "argue" I would say that the 115nm of torque produced by the mighty boxer happens (memory here) slightly over 5000 RPM. I know that I can get the front end to be real light at 2-3000 rpm, so I would think that full load torque should be manifested in a zero slip high speed sustained roll on that could be presumably be held right up to red line depending on wind and grade resistance.

Does that make sense?
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Old 19 Oct 2007
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Faults on the GS yadda ya

Thanks for that link Dave. Now I need therapy. I know that the shaft / seal issue I had has something to do with my clutch slip... When you're sitting at the side of the road, (backwoods Quebec) in the rain with a bazillion Hogs flying past (all taking pictures) and all you can smell is gear oil (yuck) you know some of it landed where it best not.
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