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Bjorn 9 Sep 2010 18:22

F650gs starting problems
 
Hi,

In Peru at the moment on a rtw. Got starting problems in the mornings and I think it might be to do with fuel system.
Fuel pump is OK. But I'd like to clean the injectors and the fuel filter if possible.

Just found Bardahl injector/carburettor cleaner made in the US.

Is it also possible to clean/wash the original fuel filter? With petrol or injector cleaner?
(I don't have a replacement filter at hand, but will get one from a friend brought over from Germany in 3 weeks).

Thanks for your help!
Bjorn

tmotten 9 Sep 2010 23:30

I'm gonna have to go out on a limb here and say no you can't. There are some filter that are cleanable using a micro steel mesh, but some engineers shun them. Plus if it would be you'd be able to dissemble it.

I'd recommend asking your mate to get a FI car type fuel filter as well, and place it before the pressure regulator/ filter to prevent having to change it in future.

The Chain Gang • View topic - Fuel filter fitted.

If you're at altitude it could likely be the air intake issues. In Salta Argentina (which is not that high) and a few cases there after I had issues with starting when cold (the motor that is) which was only solved by removing the snorkel until the motor got some heat into it. Once it was warm it started fine with the snorkel on. It's very restrictive and the thin air doesn't help. I had a clean f(foam) filter. A dirty one would make it even harder.
I know of a few others that had the same issue in Bolivia.

Lisa Thomas 10 Sep 2010 06:18

..starting problems.a few ideas
 
Hi Bjorn
I'll try to give you the answers as I remember them...not had any coffee this am jeigerso doing this off the top of my head!

re the fuel filter - nope - you cant clean it. the filter on the 650 isnt just a filter...its a filter and a gas tank pressure regulator. if you have a look at the BMW price for the stock item you'll see that its a dam site more than just a filter. its actually a sealed cylindrical component.
as far as the injectors go - the best way to clean them - if you really think that they are that bad...is to find someone local, take them the injector and get them to clean it. this shouldnt be too difficult as a high % of vehicles in Peru are diesels and every diesel vehicle is injected. they should therefore know what they are doing...infact simon had this done with his injectors in Arequipa in Peru. cost well under $10 to do both. good job done.
from memory the off the shelf, pour in your gas tank home-style injector cleaner solutions will most likely not work on your bikes injectors as the chemical solvant in the solution requires a specific amount of heat to activate it. and the injectors on bikes are placed diferently than on cars. dont get as hot and therefore the solution cleaner just ends up being squirted out and being burnt up as your engine ticks over.
as tomtten mentioned altitude can play a part - so have a look at your altitude.

things that I would try if I were you are:
check the terminals onto the battery for corrosion and make sure they are done up tight.
check your spark plugs are seated properly and are gapped correctly and still looking healthy
check your air filter - try starting it in the morning with no air filter in and see how it acts.
another thing to consider - your throttle sensor can easlily get itself out of whack - especially if you are going from road to dirt from crawling around town at slow speeds. this problem can start with the symptons you have described and get progressively worse. to reset the throttle sensor is easy.
procedure:
turn your ignition on.
turn your throttle all the way to max...and then release it quickly.
do this twice more. (total 3 times)
turn ignition off.
wait 15 secs
its now reset to factory default.

its always worth considering that you may have condensation/water in your gas tank..or just a bad batch of fuel.
check your oil level hasnt for some bizzare reason suddenly dropped. (bike gremlins do exist)

let me know if any of this helps!
just a quick point - after over 150,000 miles I have never had to clean my injectors. I have just put in a new set but that was as a precaution and not a necessity. so your problem may lie elsewhere.....

Bertrand 10 Sep 2010 10:02

1 Attachment(s)
Hello Bjorn
a few tips that might help if you think that it may be the fuel system
This picture below is your fuel pump- as you can see there is a mesh filter at the bottom- mine was very clogged after my Africa trip- and there was a lot of 'crud/sediment at the bottom of the tank You may want to start by cleaning out your fuel tank (no need to remove it from bike) and carefully clean this filter- take care not to damage the rubber seal when rotating the large round cap (disconnect battery FIRST for safety then disconnect fuel pump wiring clips)
Then
  • Check fuel pump function (whirring on start up)
  • How old is the battery? if it is a wet one like the OE Yuasa, is the electrolyte level low? if it's an old gel one, it may have expired- check connections to it for tightness- clean corrosion off-re-tighten-re-grease terminals
  • Check for no leaks / loose clamp on fuel filter/regulator (air getting in?)
  • Check for spark shorting to earth
  • Check spark plug
  • Maybe replace HT lead and plug cap
  • Check starter motor connection - clean terminals
  • You could also have a dodgy/intermittent connection on the side stand cut out switch -
  • Brown is the negative
  • Brown and Black is the gear box switch
  • Brown and Violet is the Motronic relay
  • To bypass the switch you need to Bridge the brown and brown and violet wires- This is for my F650 Dakar 2001
  • Lisa has covered the injectors
  • Re: resetting the BMS-C unit (brain of the bike to reset throttle)- slight correction Lisa if I may- the procedure is:
  1. Disconnect battery as the BMS-C must be totally powered down for full reset
  2. Disconnect BMS-C unit (silver box under seat by fuel filter)- pull towards you only on the red toggle handle gently to nurse it out- careful not to damage the removeable seal
  3. Leave the BMS-disconnected for about 30 minutes
  4. Reconnect BMS-C unit, remember to position the seal in the female plug, gently position over male pins carefully and push back on the red toggle handle to lock down on the BMS-C
  5. Reconnect battery
  6. Turn on ignition but NOT the engine
  7. Rotate throttle to max then roll back in a controlled manner- do twice
  8. Turn off the ignition
  9. Turn bike back on and fire engine- BMW state that the engine now needs to run and get to the point where the radiator fan comes on for the full reset to be complete then the engine can be turned off- and you are done
You might want to invest in a '911 emergency dongle' from South Africa- it saves hours of head scratching- I won't ride without it
You can either get the version that works only with a USB lead to your notebook or one that also has the bluetooth option ( I prefer it as it works on my phone (must be JSR82 compliant) - Hex give you the software as part of your purchase of the device.
Good luck

another tought- if you have fitted extra fuel filters, and are in high heat, you might have what is called as 'vapour lock'- a rag wrapped around the filter and kept wet resolves that.

Bjorn 18 Sep 2010 05:32

Thanks for your detailed answers. And sorry for the late response on my behalf – just had an accident and was stuck in the mountains for a week. (Narrow mountain track, luggage got caught on a wall, bike survived a 4-time-summersault downhill for 6 meters, I came off on the first one so only limping and no further damage on bike or me... phew ;)

Anyway. Back to the starting problems. I've already reset BMS-C a while ago. I also let the bike run in idle for 10 min until the fan switched on. Tomorrow I'll take the fuel pump out.

Starting problems in the morning persist, both in altitude and at sea level. Now, I'm not a mechanic but common sense tells me that if a bike doesn't start up properly, it's gotta be either battery, fuel supply or starting-relais/starter. Anything else I should think of?

I'm now trying to cancel things out. Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) It can't be the starter: when I start up the bike for the first time of the day and let it run for just 3-4 minutes and then let it cool down for 3 hours, the bike starts up OK. (That first starting procedure is always accomapnied by the solenoid/starter relais clicking noticeably a few times, and I have to give a bit of throttle. Any other starting procedure of the day I do NOT have to give any throttle).

2) I'm not entirely sure on this, but: I guess it's not the battery. (A Hawker/Odyssey about 80000km old). When I connected it to 2 different chargers, both chargers said it's full. And it reads 12.8V.
That said: the battery DOES sound low crank. Could it be that it's discharging VERY rapidly during the starting procedure?
I would test a new battery from the shop, but the problem is: the starting problem ONLY happens when I start the bike up for the first time for the day. Hence I would need to purchase a new battery and fit it in the morning to see what happens. (In other words: RIDING to the bike shop and swap the battery over in front of the shop would be of no help).

As I said: tomorrow I'll check the fuel pump. But I have to make a decision about what I'd like to order because my friend is coming over from Germany end of next week...

tmotten 18 Sep 2010 09:58

I take it that you mean 8000km?

You can't tell if a battery is gone by voltage or how a charge operates. I'd look at trying a new battery first. It's a very common issue with these bikes. Really need to keep an eye on them. Where as the pump issue is less common.

Any chance of going into the shop and ask if you could hook it up for 1 minute to test it? Alternatively you could hook any battery up with some leads to try.

Any bikes is hardest to start when it's at it's coldest, which will be first start of the day.

A pump issue doesn't make sense if the problem is only an issue at first start.


Good to hear you're OK. Now you know why luggage should never be wider than the handle bars. We learned it through a similar lesson. With us a car hit it. beerchug

Bjorn 18 Sep 2010 15:04

Thanks for the quick reply. Will look at the battery then – the fact that it said "charged" had me confused.

PS: I did mean 80000km. And my luggage system is narrower than the handlebars. But the problem was that wall was lower than the handle bars yet high enough to catch the panniers :(

Bjorn

masukomi 18 Sep 2010 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjorn (Post 305866)
Thanks for your detailed answers. And sorry for the late response on my behalf – just had an accident and was stuck in the mountains for a week. (Narrow mountain track, luggage got caught on a wall, bike survived a 4-time-summersault downhill for 6 meters, I came off on the first one so only limping and no further damage on bike or me... phew ;)

First off. Glad you're ok. Also, love that the bike survived intact; increases my confidence in taking ours on the same(ish) trip.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjorn (Post 305866)
....Starting problems in the morning persist, both in altitude and at sea level. Now, I'm not a mechanic but common sense tells me that if a bike doesn't start up properly, it's gotta be either battery, fuel supply or starting-relais/starter. Anything else I should think of?

There's the Voltage regulator too, but you don't seem to be exhibiting any of the followup symptoms that are generally associated with that.

F650 Voltage Rectifier FAQ are the symptoms of it failing


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjorn (Post 305866)
...1) It can't be the starter: when I start up the bike for the first time of the day and let it run for just 3-4 minutes and then let it cool down for 3 hours, the bike starts up OK. (That first starting procedure is always accomapnied by the solenoid/starter relais clicking noticeably a few times, and I have to give a bit of throttle. Any other starting procedure of the day I do NOT have to give any throttle).

According the the Hard starting FAQ (which you've probably already checked) "Relay chattering when starter pressed" could be an indication of low battery voltage or "Battery failing (voltage becomes low when starter pressed)"

Classic Hard Starting Poor Running FAQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjorn (Post 305866)
2) I'm not entirely sure on this, but: I guess it's not the battery. (A Hawker/Odyssey about 80000km old). When I connected it to 2 different chargers, both chargers said it's full. And it reads 12.8V.
That said: the battery DOES sound low crank. Could it be that it's discharging VERY rapidly during the starting procedure?

The FAQ does seem to imply that it could be discharging rapidly. I'm not at all knowledgable on this subject, but you see that with typical consumer (think AA type) batteries alot. Sometimes with old ones the meters say they're fine but they last for no time at all when you try to actually use them.

tmotten 19 Sep 2010 00:03

Bloody hell, that's a lot of mileage. Duno how old it is, but 2 years is a long of shelf for a battery I've always been told. They are consumables.

All the other issues should show at any moment, not just once in the morning.


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