BMW R1200GS/GSA "pinging" leading to possible Engine Failure!
 

We are trying to obtain as much info as possible from 1200 GS/GSA riders all over the World, but more specifically in the Southern Hemisphere countries.

Our 2009 GSA's have been found to run incredibly lean with an Air/Fuel ratio of 14.7:1, which together with our poor fuel in South Africa and high temperatures are causing the bikes to constantly "ping" and the overheating to the point where we have to switch the bikes off.

A group of 20 GS/GSA/HP2's and one RT were tested in a controlled environment on a Dyno and at 24deg C, we found that the worse of the lot was the RT with a 15:1 ratio.

We have been told by BMW that these are the settings to comply with the EU Regulations, but Germany and Europe specifically might as well be another world... we have temperatures up to 47 degrees.
Planning a trip through Africa is going to be near impossible due to the poor fuel.

There have been a couple of Boxer engines self-destructing due to the high heat caused by excessively hot running conditions, helped along by extreme temps in the engines with lean mixtures.

We have a huge lot of research behind the belt and want to present our findings to BMW to get them to allow the mixture mapping to be changed on our bikes to the idea of 13.5:1, which would not only allow a better and more responsive engine use, but would also prevent damage and melting of pistons and valves.

Anyone interested can please check our thread and findings as well as comments that are now rolling in from all over as to the "pinging" condition of these wonderful machines!

Any and all advice, help and info would be gratefully received to assist in resolving the issue!

BMW R1200GS/GSA - Boxer Engine - DYNO TESTING DONE - SHOCKING RESULTS !!! (Technical info on the thread from page 10 onwards)

Safe riding!

I wouldn't expect them to be terribly responsive. Witness the engine surging in earlier oilheads, which got the comment that this is "current state of technology".

However, an engine that is pinging and overheating in any climate has a fault. As long as the bike is under warranty you have legal possibilities of redress. Also, I cannot see BMW wanting to replace engines under warranty in great numbers.

Perhaps in the first instance bikes under warranty should go back to the dealer for repair. It's the dealer's and BMW's problem, don't let them make it yours.

The other thing you can do, if BMW don't want to play ball, is to go to the bike magazines and let them publicise that. Loss of sales will make them move.

Good luck.

I think it's a warranty-issue.


Yesterday I read through all the 14 (?) pages on wilddog but couldn't find any compilation of data or dyno-graphs. Will it be available?
Edit: Found the data.

They were posted in PDF format for the bikes tested... attached ~!

Notice however the lack of power on the one HP2 :nono:

The other HP2 doesn't look good either, and they are both modified...

Don't these bikes have "knock" sensors to overcome this very problem?
Or am I missing something?

Yeah, knock sensor is amazing thing for a modern high-compression engine, but only to a certain level since it has its limits too.

R1200-s run extremely lean in stock mixture already (and they are one of the most fuel-efficent 1200cc currently around as well thanks to that and very developed EFI mapping, since BMW has a long history with EFI on their bikes)

...and then guys put better breathing filters (light foams, K&Ns etc - even more air!) and better flowing exhausts (Akrapovices, Remuses etc etc - more flow, less backpressure, faster circulation of air thus more air) = fuel mixtures go ultra-lean with those mods = extreme heat on cylinder upper heads. Combine this with extremely hot weather conditions. This all lean, dry and hot running probably helps to collect more carbon deposits on the piston heads, cylinder upper wall and valve heads as well = pinking that knock sensors can't help at some point if there's just too much of it.

I reckon we'll soon see burned holes in the piston heads if guys keep heavily performance-modifying their modern EFI bikes and running them in extremely hot climates - and it's not just BMWs, most of the new modern high compression fuel efficent EFI bikes run close-to-extremely lean mixture in stock already, the physics remain the same on all engines.

THIS is exactly the type of damage we want to try and avoid and prevent. The "suggestions" that have been made has ranged from 1. Changing our riding style, 2. Adding Octane Boosters, 3. Staying out o fthe 4000 - 4500rpm range.... to even "Not riding on very hot days" :(
The worst suggestion was that we should just trade the bikes in before the 2 year warranty lapses - so we won't have any problems.
My old R75/5 is now over 35 years old and still rides like a dream.... you want to tell me BMW has digressed and that their new "superior" 1200's are only expected to last 2 years?
Even if I can afford to buy a new bike every 2 years - which I cannot - it's still NOT ethically or morally right to then knowingly allow a possible problem bike to be sold to a fellow biker, where the engine "might" be damaged or even have catastrophic failure when the warranty is no longer covering the bike?

My not wanting or allowing people in different climates to change the airflow mapping, or voiding warranties if we even look at Power Commanders etc is nothing short of bullying tactics, when all we really want it to have a very expensive bike - running correctly as it should!

I realise the EC have strict emmission controls - well I live in Africa and one single Taxi's emmissions will destroy the good that 100 bikes are trying to do.

I delivered a letter & ultimatum to BMW yesterday (Thursday) Sort it out - or refund me!

I have just read this thread and would like to know the result of your ultimatum.
Cheers,
Yuksel

Me too.

Did they use the phrase "They all do that Sir" ?

Still, think of how much the lawyers will have charged since June 2010 if this is still going on :eek3:

Andy

"They all do that Sir" ... is exactly what they came out with.

The excuses were unbelievable.... the BMW-SA National Sales Manager even uttered "don't you agree that in some cases pinging is not detremental and non-destructive, and merely the way the engine was saying it was still functional" - WHERE in your life have you ever heard such crap?

The way the American Consumer law protects their people was also mentioned, and basically the fact was agreed that because the South African Consumer law was not so strict - I had no recoursse!
In fact I was told that the vehicle's ECU was set for EU-3 standards and I was only one person to take on the system - therefore BMW-SA did not have enough to approach Germany for resolution to change the ECU mapping for use in Africa (in Europe they use 98 & 100 Octane - we used 95 Octane and at Sea-Level the HP output of the bike was only 92Hp instead of the marketed and promised 105HP - FALSE advertising!!)..... so much for caring about their clients!

After so-called checking and testing, not under the conditions we discussed, and with a riding style that purely disgussed me..... they declined to accept any responsibility or even to try and offer assistance.

The bike was garaged while we then hedged our options - however a family crisis arose in the UK, which meant I needed to sell my GSA ..... however I received a really good offer for the bike, which allowed me to purchase a brand new 2011 GSA a month ago in England - for less than I sold the 2009 SOHC for!

I have however only managed to do about 18 miles on the bike.... waiting for full UK license and Insurance to allow me to ride... will then see whether this one is any better?

Basically the attitude I received from BMW management sucked!! One' things for sure.... I'll never buy a BMW in SA ever again......:(

Tough time there, but I'm glad it sounds like you are getting close to the end. It's a mess when more and more issues like this make me want to keep the Bonneville (R80GS substitute) for even longer.

The 2011 bike will have none of these problems with EU fuel that I'm aware of. The BMW testers club does seem to have run it's course with the 1200's, they seem to be working on the 800/650 and waiting for the watercooled version (bets on what'll leak or fail on the first years production model now been taken).

BMW customer service in the UK however is probably the model they used to train the South Africans. Hopefully you don't get to meet them though (although if you do and it happens to be in a dark alley late at night, give 'em something from me).

Andy

All that and you bought a brand new GS with the money???? :confused1::confused1::confused1:
Geez. Apparently you still think very highly of the model, brand, and riding experience. I'm not sure how seriously to take all your previous complaints, but I do begin to see why BMW would continue to treat their customers poorly: it's obviously a viable business plan!

Back to my Kawasakis and Suzuki.

Mark

+1 on that markharf.. seems utter madness to go near them again.

I have many many MZ's in many pieces. I'm am under no illusions that they really have any saving graces in terms of looks, performance, reliability, attractiveness to the opposite sex etc. In short they are, and really always were, pretty crap in the scheme of things.

However, give me a stormy night, a knackered bike and nothing more advanced than a can of cola and a Swiss army knife and can you guess what I hope the bike is?

Having learned that South African petrol is the issue, why start the learning curve at the bottom by buying a Triumph, Yamaha, Honda, Ural, Cagiva or whatever that's going to have an equally hopeless bit of design somewhere? Admittedly, after the F650 water pump thing I will never buy a new BMW again and I will never have any faith in any brand, but this also, logically, means using the hard gained knowledge should make the Rotax engined pig a logical choice for me. I guess Canard likes the 1200 when it works and knows them well.

Of course, as the great man (Homer Simpson) said; "Listen to the song in your heart, not the voices in your head".

Andy

I hope for Canard's sake that the BMW he bought in the UK is fault free as otherwise I suspect he'll find out that the only difference between there and here is the salesman's accent.

Good luck with the bike but "better the devil you know" is not a buying philosophy I'd have followed in his position.

Maybe he won't need to reflect on the truth of "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" but based on what I've seen of the BMW experience I wouldn't bet on it.

I can see the logic behind some people's comments.

Why did I buy another BMW..... firstly it was my wife that originally convinced me to buy a GS. My first bikes were all Yamaha's and I managed to get a good deal on a BMW Dakar in 2007 after not riding for a few years. Absolutely lovedd the Dakkie - but 2-up (I'm 6'4 & she's 5'11) -with luggage... in Africa, we were going nowhere fast and teh Dakkie was not capable of carrying us around!

My wife fell in love with the look of the GSA.... (she's a marketing designer) and the comfort of the bike which we test-rode numerous times.
In fact the bike itself is not the problem here... rather the political crap the EU have come out with for their emmission control laws.
So running the GSA in SA with poor fuel and NOT adjusting the ECU to compensate... this was the real issue as well as BMW-SA's failure and cowardice to insist that Germany supplies the SA clients with alternate fuel mapping...... IN FACT - even pointing out that on BMW's Marketing Brochure there's mention made of "optional poor fuel mapping available" - did not get them to sort out the problem.
For those of you that still have those glossy pages... have a look under the specifications section where this is clearly mentioned....

The problem for BMW-SA was that .. if they did change the mapping - they would technically be admitting there's a fuel issue. THIS is what they did not want to do... and they literally bulldoze their client's or should I say BULLSHIT - into thinking the problem is not serious.

So to make a long story short - the vehicle is not the problem - it's like a race-horse with one of it's legs being shackled... by BMW!

The volcano eruption in Iceland pumped more carp into the atmosphere than any of our vehicles do....

The fact that I bought another GSA - well I'm hoping that being closer to Germany... if I do indeed have a problem, I'll feel NOTHING to ride over there and take the bike back to the factory (obviously being reasonable ..) and we do so love the actual bike and love touring on it.

I have always believed that any product is only as good as the service or support backing it receives.... here BMW in SA failed their brand!

I'm willing to try again... same bike , different country... however if it fails here as well... then I will sell the bike and replace it with either a Yamaha... or showing my age, a Triumph scrambler... maybe even a Norton! :thumbup1:

The problem is not serious because you bought another bike from them. It would become serious if you sent them a photocopy of an invoice for another brand of bike to replace it.

2011 R1200GSA pre-ignition and pinging
 

Hi, I came across your post via Google. I am aware you have a 2009 model but I am experiencing something similar on my 2011 GSA. I have a post on ADVRider, do you think it is the same thing you referred to? Has your issue been resolved?

See:
2011 R1200GSA misfire or stall? - ADVrider

Kevin
Cape Town /\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ South Africa

I wish, but BMW are not interested in single, individual customers.
They are not alone in that; in this day and age, manufacturers and service providers will react best to mass media coverage, lobbying and that form of activity that represents a body of people - the more the better.
Apart from that, I believe that BMW can still sell every 1200GS that comes off their production line.

Your BMW May be a LEMON, and don't expect help from BMW!


I have struggled a bit to understand the problem here because way back in this thread Canard says that you are using 95 octane fuel in SA which is commonly in use here in the UK, with no obvious detrimental pinging reported. Thereafter, does the reported issue come down to the higher ambient temperature issue that is mentioned (I haven't waded through the link to the SA website)?
It seems that Canards' solution to the problem was to move to the UK and buy another 1200GS - a newer model with less problems in the cold, dank, wet UK??!

Kevin - my issue as well as the problem with the other GS/GSA's that requested that BMW resolve the issue was merely met with total indifference.
Even the fact that the GS/GSA Sales brochure that they provide, states that there is a free optional "Poor Fuel Map" for the ECU listed under extra's - met with no response and I was told they could not do it as the bikes had to leave the factory with settings and emmissions that complied with the EU-standards.......... bugger the fact that we live in SA, have very hot temps, poor fuel etc.

I was also told catagorically by Steli Momos from BMW-SA that I was "just one client" and that there were too few of us to warrant them approaching BMW-GA to change or resolve the issue...........doh so much for customer relations.

There is a very long thread also dealing with these issues on the Wilddog.za.net website in SA........... have a looksee and good luck matey!

Issues like these will ONLY ever be resolved when the consumers stand together and affect their pockets,... then they will listen.

In the meantime....as Walkabout suggested.... I sold my GSA in South Africa beginning of last year........ bought a brand new DOHC in the UK for R20k less than I sold my 2009 GSA... (figures that we get nailed in SA) and my 2011 also came with all the bells & whistles and free Alu luggage (try getting that in SA).
The 2011 is perfect and runs like a dream......... on decent fuel and colder climate.

During my visit to Cape Town the past 2 months ... I bought myself a REAL bike (and I feel 17 again) ...... this 30yr-old XT550 is in pristine condition, starts first kick, DOES NOT PING and made me realise that my GSA would probably not be around in 30-yrs time (My mate has an old R75/5 Beemer that still runs sweet.... but then it doesn't have all the electronic crap the new bikes do)

So when visiting SA......... I'll be riding this beauty! :thumbup1:

Usually down to mods-like K&N filters + fast flowing exhausts etc all very nice but these will hugely increase the 'bike running lean' problem.

Some mods are perceived as not 'sexy' yet are some of the most important ones- such as changing the suspension and fitting a fuel controller in the case of the R1200GS.
I fitted one on my 1200 and never had a problem as I was able to fine tune the fuel flow across the whole rpm range.
The only downside was a slightly increased fuel consumption-
Solution: Fit a Fuel controller -

Lovely XT Canard !

R1200GSA pinging, knocking, pre-ignition, detonation, stall
 

Unfortunately fitting such a device will void the BMW 2 year warranty :frown:

I have this discussion on the Air/Fuel running lean, pinging, knocking, pre-ignition and detonation on our R1200GS DOHC bikes going at the forums below as well, makes for some interesting reading, pop over and browse around, it will be worth it :thumbup:

2011 R1200GSA misfire/pre-ignition/knock/ping/detonation? | BMW Motorcycle Club Cape
R1200GSA erratic idle, misfire, pre-ignition, detonation, ping, knock and stall
R1200GSA erratic idle, misfire, pre-ignition, detonation, ping, knock and stall - ::. UKGSer.com .::
2011 R1200GSA misfire or stall? - ADVrider

Kevin
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\
R1200GS-WP

your dealers diagnostic system will have this map on them, obviously as you have bought the bike you will probably have to pay for them to put it on.
If you ask their aftersales department they should be able to activate this map.
this is available, as far as im aware, on all current bmws with programmable ecus.

Nope "no such map available"

The dealership as well as BMW-SA themselves have indicated they had no knowledge of this "Optional Poor Fuel Map" ............. amazing - as their brochure clearly advertised the fact that it's available - see attached!

Worst part is that even AFTER we pointed this out... they still refused to load it whether we paid or not!
Methinks that they know very well what the problems are but have dealt out so many excuses and crap to their clients - that if they now actually do something to help, it would be tantamount to admitting they have in fact been wrong all along.

My BIGGEST problem was always that there are too many people that love the roundel-badge whether good or bad........ and too few willing to admit there might be a problem and actually stand up for their rights. Dunno what it is.... maybe "lemming-syndrome" to just follow the pack . or maybe their ego's will take a knock if they admit they actually bought something that might have a problem.

Until we stick together as riders, bike-lovers, clients and consumers against the bullying of BMW.... we might as well throw in the towel! :confused1:

Well dealers in the uk have it on their systems, which should be the same as SA, and have never been told not to load it onto bikes if asked. Maybe they just dont realise its there. Either that or BMW AG didnt load in onto SA systems, which is kinda stupid.

I agree with you.... but you must remember that the Saffers are a really arrogant bunch!
To admit they are wrong or perhaps missed something or that an outsider can come and show them how/what to do .... is sometimes not acceptable.
We would have thought that BMW-SA would do everything in their power to avoid negative PR and that to have client's singing their praises, would be one of the priority reasons for getting the problem solved, but as you can see - not only from Kevin's post, but all the links he's given on numerous other forums - it's easier walking into a brick wall that getting them to resolve the problem.

........... in fact I lie - they did try suggest one way of solving the problem.... (which I was flabberghasted about as we're always pre-warned not to use aftermarket additives) .... we were instructed to add Octane booster to every tank of fuel (obviously at our own cost) . but it SA it added 25% to the cost of a tank of fuel doh

R1200GS erratic idle and intermittent stalling
 

Wait! Here is another way to solve the problem is, I quote BMW SA, "ride around the problem" even if that means "change your riding style" :censored:

When I asked if they could load a different fuel map, possibly one with a richer mix in the low revs I was told, "it is not possible, we just plug the bike's computer into the MOSS computer and press the button, it automatically verifies with BMW and checks for updates and does a diagnostic test, we cannot change the fuel map, we cannot change anything" :doh: :thumbdown:

you could always rife to the ul and i could load it on for you haha.
the fact you are calling it might be confusing them, they are not maps in such that you see the fuel graph, its simply a point and click worded bit of software.
Ill check where it is exactly (MOSS has cavernous menus which are ever changing with new operating system updates) when im in work next week and let you know and maybe you can ask your dealer to follow it.

Like i said before though im not 100% itll be on the SA systems but its worth a shot

Well I have finally found a solution - NO THANKS TO BMW!! :nono:

We have found a chap in the UK that can remap the ECU basemap to what it should be.
Huge positive results have been achieved with most people raving that their bikes are totally different animals. Biggest benefit is that the bike is smooth, up to 25% more power and best of all - the A/F ratio is around 13.2 - 13.5:1 which is what it should have been from the start. Fuel consumption is also far better!
Problem sorted - albeit at a cost of around 350 pounds (cheaper and far better option than a PC or aftermarket device) :thumbup1:

Any contact info/more details on this?

Cylinder Head Carbon Deposits - BMW 1200 GSA
 

Three friends and I just rode London - Beijing on nearly identical 2007 BMW 1200 Adventures. On returning to England the bikes were turned over to a BMW garage for maintenance. All of them turned out to have significant carbon deposits on the cylinder heads - "where the piston comes towards the exhaust valve".
They getting stuck in with a wire brush and hope this will do the job. But I thought I'd search the net for similar problems and came across this string, so am adding this info for anyone collecting such data.
None of the bikes had mods to make them run leaner. We ran in very hot conditions across deserts and used low octane fuel where that was the only stuff available. However, on such occasions we usually added octane booster.
Hope that's useful extra input.
If it takes more than a wire brush, I'll let you all know.
In the meantime, it's fun to discover such knowledgable new friends.