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  #1  
Old 4 May 2013
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Real world mpg l/100km for expedition prepared 4x4's

Basically I would like real world expedition vehicle mpg l/100km fuel consumption figures please to help me make the following decision (read below if interested)

Figures preferred for fully loaded with roof rack, tent, awning, kitchen sink on board please.
I have a landrover d2 v8 auto with all this mentioned, plus close to 3000kg (not weighed since donated much unused equip) running standard sized at's tyres.

Worst case on tough piste inc some sand and v rough tracks 13 mpg
Best case (probably with a tailwind) 22mpg
Overall average 7000 miles 16 mpg. 17.7 litres per 100km

Are these figures so bad......? What do you get in your 4x4.

With some considerable streamlining (Alu box on roof protrudes 1ft further than windscreen! Oops) I hope to get this up by 1-2 mpg maybe 3 if I am really lucky and when on decent roads at 50-56 mph. It maybe goes without saying I have to drive with a light foot, currently going over 60 mph brings the figures down!




Background info.

We bought a car to do a one way trip to west africa and then sell. We found a Landrover discovery 2 V8 going for a song and thought why not (no comments yet please!)

Something terrible happened whilst preparing the vehicle and travelling in it, we became emotionally attached! . I went completely overboard on preparing it for a one way trip, spending countless days/ weeks on ebay/ the internet sourcing second hand parts where possible and months fitting and custom building the interior locker system.

So we are in a position I would probably not wish to repeat. I love the d2, not my first choice for harsh climates but it got us to Gambia and back just fine. The car is IMHO beautifully fitted out for living out of long term now and I can't bring myself to sell it (plus not many would want it with the v8!) plus I have already renewed many items on it.
This is one of the smoothest rides you could wish for (OME springs shocks plus air helper bags) its a joy to drive. Did a 14 hour day just yesterday through morocco and Spain. Auto box is surprisingly great on and off road.

Anyway this is my dilemma. Fuel consumption! I got the car cheap, so I saved quite a few quid which goes towards my fuel bill. But as we now want to keep this a few years at least and do some mid range trips.

So do I
1) suck it up and accept higher fuel bills and leave the car as is.
2) get a reputable LPG conversion done so at least in Europe we can get (much) lower fuel bills. (Hugely mixed reports on LPG conversions) The car will be in use in Europe the vast majority of the time apart from odd trip.
3) buy a disco td5 breaking and take all I need off it and change to td5 (fuel consumption reports widely mixed and possibly not hugely better...?)
4) fit 300 tdi engine, (seen it done) enjoy electrical free travelling (would then consider long range trips without support) but loose the refinements. Cruise control is my new favourite toy!
5) fit totally different engine (I can hear the hmmm's with that one already) how about a big diesel lump? Lr with a lc engine???


Thanks in advance
James
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  #2  
Old 4 May 2013
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Those figures are about right for a Disco 2 V8, The Disco is a nice vehicle on motorways, very true and I love the V8.

We live at 1440 metres ASL in Canada and our Disco 2 gets 15 mpg around town and 18-22 on a longer run, VERY dependant on wind direction too, getting rid of the high top box will help a little.

to compare our D90 overlander with roof tent etc on a 27,000 km trip to Ghana and back got 28 mpg average, best of 35 (with wind behind) and worst in Sahara dunes of 24mpg

Think about how many years you realistically intend to keep the Rover, work out your average yearly mileage, then figure out fuel cost differences between 16 mpg and ~28 ish mpg over the life of the vehicle.

If you are planning on keeping the D2 for a few years probably find it will cost the same in petrol as doing a conversion (roughly) to diesel, if you plan on keeping it for 15 years then think of a diesel conversion or a different vehicle (Land Rover obviously)

Petrol here in Canada is currently 72p a litre - about half price of the UK/Europe

Make your next trip the Americas
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'09 Suzuki DR650
'00 Discovery Series 2 V8
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http://gipperstravels.blogspot.com/
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  #3  
Old 5 May 2013
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Mpg figures from hubb

Thanks Grif, wise words. I guess you guys don't use LPG with fuel that price!

Your 90 certainly is more economical, from a previous post of yours you mention keeping the weight down though to possibly get those figures...?
. From what I can gather a disco td5 fully loaded wouldn't get those figures you achieve. Having scoured the hubb for hours these are quotes i have found. Mpg figures are based on uk gallon.
This link was useful.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...nder-mpg-19861

"With our Defender 110 TD5, we averaged about 15 liters per 100 km (18.9mpg) .Nouadhibou to Nouakchott. This was what our TD5 generally consumed both on and off piste. With the roof top tent acting like an air break at higher speeds, and weighing 3200 kg with 220 lt fuel and 100 liters of .... we used closer to 21 liters per 100 km (13.5 mpg) around Lake Chad since we were dragging our rear diff a lot."

"I used an auto Discovery last year in the NT and got 10kpl easily (10L/100 - or 28.5 mpg) tearing around and bush bashing. I never managed to crack 30 mpg which was a shame. But it only carried 150kg of weight.
The high roofed Britz 78 I hired after could not crack 8kpl (22.6 mpg) even at 100kph"

"The figures don't look far off what I'd expect. On my 300 TDI 110, fully loaded we were getting about 15 mpg. Whilst the engines seem good on a stock standard, lightly loaded Defender, once they are loaded up and / or the wind resistance is changed with roll cages / roof racks / roof tents etc, the engine seems really underpowered and has to work quite hard."

"Aerodynamics have a lot to say. Now that we've taken the roof tent off (but not the roof rack)...we use 11L/100 km (26mpg) instead of 15L/100km (19 mpg)"

"It looks to me like our 15L/100km (19mpg) is pretty average accoding to Cols web link."

" a german LC Prado with 3.0 lt engine we drove Nouadhibou to Nouakchott together with, used more than 15l/100km."
>Very interesting, I've heard those Prados have great engines and are efficient - but it seems no better than a td5. So its altogether a normal figure then

We met a French man in a 109 highly modified camper conversion weighing around 3.5 t but with a 300 tdi engine claiming to get 18L / 100 km ( 16 mpg) on pistes and 12l / 100km (24 MPG) on black top at 100-120 kph.

From Landcruiser forums its reported the older ones achieve real world loaded figures of around 21 mpg.

On the road, the 3.0 liter D4d will cruise effortlessly, loaded up in the rear.
Fuel consumption at a steady 60mph, (100km/h) on cruise control, is a respectable 30 mpg, with about 300kg load in the rear.
With the 87 liter tank (19.1 gallons) has given me 500 miles with quarter tank left.
So, perhaps the older land Cruisers were thirsty, I know, because my son in law has one, but the newer ones are very economical, as far as 4x4's are concerned.

Landrover 101 Ambulance Bodied. Chassis cab built in 1977 and built into ambulance in the early 80’s. Engine is a Landrover 300Tdi –
Approx 22-24 mpg on road, can fall to 14 mpg (UK gallon) on soft sand . This engine was bought brand new in 1999 and has covered approx 60,000 Klicks.

I have a Land Rover 127 Ambulance that is fitted with the low compression Rover V8 3.5ltr engine - unless you LPG them they are not really suitable for expedition work as they consume too much fuel ( around 10 - 12 mpg's ) I've removed my engine and have purchased a 200tdi defender diesel lump which I shall be fitting very shortly.

- Mitsubishi Delica l300 Star Wagon expedition equipped.
- Right Hand Drive Year 1994 - 2.5l Turbo Diesel Four-Wheel Drive 5-Speed Manual
- High-Roof About 168.000 km (104.000 miles) total by the time we end the trip
- Average fuel consumption 11l/100km (21 MPG)

If you're going to buy one in the UK, get an ex-military 110. 2.5 diesel engine (nonturbo) which is low in power but extremely reliable and tough. With care it will return 70mph on motorways and about 22mpg and Ive had it climbing big Saharan dunes with no dramas. Perfect overland truck - indestructible and extremely reliable

By big and heavy near 4tonne Land Cruiser drinks on average 16.55l/100km 17MPG

I recently bought a 2003 Ford Ranger; its 2.5l electronic injection intercooled TD produces 109 hp for around 10l/100km 28mpg UNLADEN, this makes me realise that the Iveco 2.5 with 100hp for 13.5l/100km 21 MPG VERY heavily laden is a well specced engine already.

Iveco daily 2.4 high top xlwb we got around 24mpg but only on Tarmac (didn't do any pistes) unmodified van but VERY heavily loaded. Like to the brim, so much we had a blow out. Great engine though, powerful and robust.

Fiat Panda 4x4 loaded up, roof rack 9L / 100km. 31mpg. ,,!

The Jeep grand cherokee was a petrol automatic, with an LPG conversion. At the Defender-travelling-speed of 90km/h on motorways, (unknown how loaded) the Jeep got around 13 l/100km 22mpg (15 when using gas 19mpg) The 200TDi Discovery got 10 l/100km, 26mpg and the 300Tdi 6x6 Defender got a disappointing 15 l/100. 19mpg

Depending upon where you are the HZJ 78 'Troupie' has got to be a real contender.
I think I'm using 13 litres per 100 km 22mpg when fully loaded at 80kmph on tarmac

Fitting a turbo It went up from 13L/100km 22mpg to 17L/100km 17 mpg . However for interest sake I also looked at our naturally aspirated company cruisers today:
105 Series Cruisers (averaged over 5 vehicles, at an average of 30,814km per vehicle) = 13.85L/100km 20 mpg Twenty Miles Per Gallon. Running on a mixture of gravel and asphalt. The use of these cars is mixed gravel and asphalt - good, bad and down right ugly, and pretty comparable to overland type use.
Our two 79 series pickups averaged a rather shocking 21L/100km. Thirteen and a half miles per gallon! These are in pure off highway use, potholes and only saw asphalt when we bought them - also loaded up like hell!

My Toyota 4.2 non turbo uses on the highway, 100 kph 1L to 8 km, in easy terrain (hard surface), 30 to 60 kph, 1L to 6km. In the sandy deserts (really soft sands) however, I remember an impressive 1L to 3km at 20 to 30 kph!

Mercedes publishes figures for the new U500: 20L/100km + 8L/hr.
At 60 mph I get a very close 27.5L/100km with a gross weight of about 12000kg. Using this formula, at 25 kph one would require 52L/100km.
I think you could figure on ~10% less in a U416 with camper due to lighter weight, assuming the motor is in good shape.


I am using a 109V8 and an Range Rover Classic 1985 for my Sahara trips. Fuel economy is poor, but affordable in north africa.
Fuel consuption with roof rack:
expect about 16-18 L/100km on tarmac.
On piste about 25L/100km.
On very soft ground (sand) and in the djungle: anything from 30 to 80L/100km (corresponding figure for diesels: 20-50L/100km or more)
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  #4  
Old 5 May 2013
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LPG on a rV8 is not the ideal conversion , you also loose space for other items or fuel , and will end up having an empty gas cylinder being lugged around for a lot of the time . Fuel burn is higher on lpg so less miles per litre on gas than petrol.
I could no longer live with 13-15mg on my 110V8 3.9i csw , so am in the process of fitting BMW M57 TD , which will give similar performance to V8 (could not face the lower performance of 300tdi or td5) . it should also manage about 25-29 mpg if driven at approx 55mph , i reckon .
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  #5  
Old 6 May 2013
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Hi James,

Overlanding on motorbikes has taught me how little you really need to pack, the 90 feels pretty spacious compared to a bike. In a 4x4 or on a motobike I use lightweight camping gear (apart from roof tent on LR) carry a good tool kit, but fairly basic spares, replace consumables before I leave, you cant pack spares to cover every eventuality, but sensible spares tailered to the known weak areas of your vehicle are the way to go.

if i remember correctly the 90 fully loaded (fuel/water etc) before our WAfrica trip was ~2300kg tons (Max load 2550kg with HD pack) this makes a big difference, reduces rolling resistance in sand etc which helped our fuel economy.

The 300Tdi engine, much as I like it, is barely adequate in a Defender 90, especially for Dune bashing, let alone in a 110/130/Discovery 2, the Td5 IMO is the worst engine LR have made since the 2.6 6 cyl. If you are going diesel I wouldnt put anything in under 3 litres, the D2 is a heavy beast and even the (stock) 4.0 V8 is underpowered IMO.

Tacr2man, thats an interesting conversion on the 110, the BMW/Merc 6 cyl diesels have always been a great engine, I always fail to understand LR's narrow mindedness with keeping their diesel engines under the 2.5 litre tax limit and making several generations of underpowered vehicles.

If only LR would build a non CRD 3/3.5 litre 5/6 cylinder diesel, thats bomb proof for ROW/overlanders
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'09 Suzuki DR650
'00 Discovery Series 2 V8
'95 Defender 90 300 Tdi Overlander
http://gipperstravels.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Gipper; 6 May 2013 at 16:15.
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  #6  
Old 6 May 2013
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We did a transafrica with a Land Cruiser 200 - V8 Diesel, with 289 HP, 650nm..

It use 16.55l at 100km in the mix, the car was near 4to weight fully equiped..

The fuel usage is in the right foot with that power.. With a person who dont like to feel the power is 13l to 100km easily doable...



Surfy
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  #7  
Old 6 May 2013
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I managed 23.5l/100KM with a L/Crsr 4.5ltr pulling a trailer (1 ton) in australia when time was of the essence Shows how big a difference a heavy right foot can make
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  #8  
Old 6 May 2013
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Sorry I can’t offer much advice apart from if you’re thinking of an engine conversion take a look at late 90’s E Class Merc’s. The cars themselves are complete junk, you can pick one up for £5-600. The engines are great though. The OM606 3 litre diesel produces 177bhp standard, 200 – 300 easily attainable if you want to throw some money at the project. Chuck the electronics away and fit a fully mechanical pump off a 603 early 90’s engine and you have a great setup.

I’m thinking of fitting the non turbo version, around 140bhp standard. Non turbo = way less under bonnet heat and a far simpler conversion in my G Wagen.

My 3 litre diesel G Wagen (603 engine 113bhp, in other words a slug), when used in Morocco had virtually identical consumption to a 300tdi 110, an auto TD5 D2 was maybe 10% better. I averaged 24mpg through UK, Spain and Morocco but that was with a light right foot and we always travel light. No roof rack and maybe 150kg of "stuff" at most.
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  #9  
Old 7 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
Hi James,

Overlanding on motorbikes has taught me how little you really need to pack, the 90 feels pretty spacious compared to a bike. In a 4x4 or on a motobike I use lightweight camping gear (apart from roof tent on LR) carry a good tool kit, but fairly basic spares, replace consumables before I leave, you cant pack spares to cover every eventuality, but sensible spares tailered to the known weak areas of your vehicle are the way to go.

if i remember correctly the 90 fully loaded (fuel/water etc) before our WAfrica trip was ~2300kg tons (Max load 2550kg with HD pack) this makes a big difference, reduces rolling resistance in sand etc which helped our fuel economy.

The 300Tdi engine, much as I like it, is barely adequate in a Defender 90, especially for Dune bashing, let alone in a 110/130/Discovery 2, the Td5 IMO is the worst engine LR have made since the 2.6 6 cyl. If you are going diesel I wouldnt put anything in under 3 litres, the D2 is a heavy beast and even the (stock) 4.0 V8 is underpowered IMO.

Tacr2man, thats an interesting conversion on the 110, the BMW/Merc 6 cyl diesels have always been a great engine, I always fail to understand LR's narrow mindedness with keeping their diesel engines under the 2.5 litre tax limit and making several generations of underpowered vehicles.

If only LR would build a non CRD 3/3.5 litre 5/6 cylinder diesel, thats bomb proof for ROW/overlanders

TD5 Disco is the worst 4x4 I have ever driven, and there's been a few! I think the tax thing is a red herring TBH. My hilux is a 170BHP 3.0 and fits in the lower tax bracket for commercials and landrover saddled their vehicles with underpowered engines for years before that became an issue. I hoped for the best when ford took over, a nice bigdiesel engine from the transit for example, but it didn't happen.

I think it comes down to the design ethos. When rover built the first landrover they raided the P4 car parts bin, Toyota raided their bus and truck division. That difference in ethos has continued ever since. At the risk of stiring up a hornets nest, Landrover build off road cars, Toyota build off road trucks. I've owned several of both marques.

Back to the OP I think your estimates are optimistic by maybe 20%. I think you need to look seriously about the amount of weight you are carrying. You may also want to look at engine and gearbox cooling. These vehicles struggle enough as it is with cooling and V8s don't like to get hot, especially if it's the 3.9.
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Old 7 May 2013
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If you are doing mostly europe, then lpg is probably the best answer, but go liquid inj lpg system . Fit a 13 row mocal oil cooler for engine(you can always cover it in winter) . The gearbox will handle the temps OK but a complete refill with redline full synthetic ATF will help considerably . Most lpg systems get problems from poorly excuted plumbing into heater hose system . The less you mod the vehicle the less reliability issues you generate , unless you do it yourself and are really fanatical about it , JMHE
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  #11  
Old 8 May 2013
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tdi2.8 tvg

Hi if you decide to go for an engine change have a look at Motor and diesels tdi2.8 tvg converstons we put one in our 6wheel r/rover to do africa in and achived 28mpg with a car weighing at 4.5t
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  #12  
Old 12 May 2013
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200tdi Defender - large Allisport intercooler, full Brownchurch roofrack and rooftent and large rectangle box up top, and a lot of the usual stuff below.

Very consistent 10.5 litres per 100km over 112,000km on my last trip.

I drive to see Africa not win a rally!
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  #13  
Old 12 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAfricaSchoolRun View Post

" a german LC Prado with 3.0 lt engine we drove Nouadhibou to Nouakchott together with, used more than 15l/100km."
>Very interesting, I've heard those Prados have great engines and are efficient - but it seems no better than a td5. So its altogether a normal figure then
.
I think you will be sadly dissapointed if you think the V8 will return them consumption figures.
Lugging 3000kg, is never going to give you 22 mpg, I would work on 17 - 18 mpg.
They are very thirsty.

The figures for the Prado, were probably the older 1KZ 3.0L engine.
.
.

Land Cruiser LC3 (D4-d) common rail diesel injection. 2005.
Ours we have roof tent, and about 300kg of "stuff" in the rear.
Twin fridge, and freezer, running of a 2000 watt inverter.
We estimate totally weight is about 2700kg. (Max about 2880kg)
Oversize tyres, snorkel, front nudge bar.
Don't ever go over 60 mph
Tyres inflated (BFG A/T) to 38 psi front, 40 psi rears.
we try to stay around 58 mph on cruise control.
We get around 28 mpg on tarmac. = 10 liters per 100km.
It does very much depend on the diesel, some is OK, some is piss poor.
We find the windage, (aka roof tent = sail) at sub 55 mph speeds, doesn't make too much difference.

vette
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  #14  
Old 12 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moggy 1968 View Post
TD5 Disco is the worst 4x4 I have ever driven, and there's been a few! I think the tax thing is a red herring TBH. My hilux is a 170BHP 3.0 and fits in the lower tax bracket for commercials and landrover saddled their vehicles with underpowered engines for years before that became an issue. I hoped for the best when ford took over, a nice bigdiesel engine from the transit for example, but it didn't happen.

I think it comes down to the design ethos. When rover built the first landrover they raided the P4 car parts bin, Toyota raided their bus and truck division. That difference in ethos has continued ever since. At the risk of stiring up a hornets nest, Landrover build off road cars, Toyota build off road trucks. I've owned several of both marques.

Back to the OP I think your estimates are optimistic by maybe 20%. I think you need to look seriously about the amount of weight you are carrying. You may also want to look at engine and gearbox cooling. These vehicles struggle enough as it is with cooling and V8s don't like to get hot, especially if it's the 3.9.
No hornets nest stirred up at all, I agree with you totally Moggy and I'm currently drinking a cup of Tea out of a green Land Rover mug!
I think it boiled down LR having no where to go for experience with bigger engines in house and at the expense of cost cutting they decided to stay small, then the waffle continued with the premise of the sub 2.5 L tax bracket.

A lack of forethought, sloppy design and shoddy build quality has blighted LR for decades and ultimately cost them hundreds of thousands of vehicle sales to Toyota worldwide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roamingyak.org View Post
I drive to see Africa not win a rally!
Couldn't agree more....
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Grif

'09 Suzuki DR650
'00 Discovery Series 2 V8
'95 Defender 90 300 Tdi Overlander
http://gipperstravels.blogspot.com/
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  #15  
Old 8 Sep 2013
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I'd suck it up or get an entirely new vehicle. I've heard of very few engine swaps (with non LR motors) actually working, or they work in the EU but when it's in Africa or other places it's no end of headaches.

I've seen LR's with Chevy motors and while it will give you the power, the integration between the two were a constant headache for the owners.

If you take the 300Tdi option and lose the refinements, you'll kick yourself for going 'backwards'.

My Series III got 20L/100km fully loaded (petrol) and slow and rough as, but tough as nails. My TLC 4.2L gets 13.5L/100k fully loaded and that doesn't change unless I'm pushing it over 120km/hr, which I don't when overlanding.

I was investigating all these ways to make the Series III more economical, and quickly learned that buying a newer vehicle was just better in the long run despite being somewhat emotionally attached to the original one.

If you don't plan on driving through Africa anymore / much and only doing the EU, you can buy a completely new vehicle with what you want/need on it with better consumption.

Cheers
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