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  #1  
Old 19 Nov 2006
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Iveco 35-10 4x4 load proportioning data please ?

Good Morning.

Tuesday I intend to change brake fluid (apparently something which should be done on regular basis ? (annually ?)) .
I want to also check / adjust 'load proportioning valve' and check/adjust pressure front & back.
This second bit is where I have and issue, I have been told that there should be a plate / sticker on inside of door (or under bonnet) which displays values for bar pressure expected in system for given axle weight of vehicle.
no I cannot find said plate and with no manuals I also have nowhere else to look !

Anyone of you guys with similar vehicle able to help me out ?

And, just a though ? how crucial is the 'load proportioning valve' ? could it be disconnected ?

Your thoughts suggestions as always awaited and appreciated.

Phil. (converted ex-RAF shortbase 35-10 4x4)
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  #2  
Old 19 Nov 2006
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as far as I am aware the load dependant brake valve opens more as you put more weight in your vehicle, thus allowing more fluid to reach the wheel cylinders, giving you more stopping power. dont think you should disconect it though as it is there for a reason.
as for changing fliuid every year that is a bit ott....brake fluid is hydroscopic meaning in takes in water and then is not pure anymore so does not do the job properly. I would say to change it is a good move if you notice spongy brakes.
I have a copy of the manual in pdf courtesy of luke so can pass it on if you can accept large files

Graeme
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  #3  
Old 20 Nov 2006
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Already delivered

Hey Phil, have you checked your FTP site recently?
It worked this weekend. Pity you couldn't make it, after the crappy week the weather Saturday was perfect.

Graeme's right more load = more rear braking. There's a pushrod coming up off the diff connected to the lever of the distributer.

The flaw in the system is that the braking distribution is changed as you go over a bump because the suspension moves

The lever to my proportioning valve broke on some potholing section in Africa;all the braking power went to the front, the consequent nose diving of the truck was scary to say the least.
With an overland vehicle whose contents don't change much you can just physically jam it on max (mine's done with a mole grip) and disconnect the pushrod from the axle. It's one less thing to go up and down with the suspension.

Enjoy
Luke

Did you get the brake warning light sorted? The spaghetti described in the electrical manual takes a lot of staring to understand.
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  #4  
Old 20 Nov 2006
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Brakes

I agree with Graeme and Luke; these valves are connected to the rear axle to determine the vehicles load situation according to the deflection of the rear suspension, thus automatically proportioning the amount of braking to the rear to avoid rear wheel lockup under heavy braking. However the system is designed for delivery vans which can be running empty, ie light on the rear end so you could lock the rear very easily if there's no proportioning valve. Once you convert it to a camper you will be running near or on (did someone say over??) max weight all the time anyway so the valve becomes less relevant.

My WM runs air suspension at the rear so hasn't got the sag of laden leaf springs, it has an extra pressure valve which leaked so I chucked it years ago and sometimes I forget the air is down after levelling on an overnight stop so drive off on the bumpstops. Yet it brakes fine, wet or dry, and will only lock the rears in a real emergency situation. (Don't ask how I know........!)

I've changed the fluid three times in eight years.

Nigel
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  #5  
Old 20 Nov 2006
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thanks !

Luke : sorry couldn't make it, really wanted to but alas Friday just dissappeared, it's amazing how even though i have all my own time I still manage to run out of time. !!!!
Thanks for the manual - excellent ! just 565 pages to browse through on those long cold winter nights !!!
Yep - brake warn light not actually fixed, but i found the cause, shorting of a cable to pads. No probs, now I know it is only the std 'pad low' warning light (and that nothing else can trigger it) I am much happy. Pads replaced about 8k kms back. - so cheers for that.

Nigel - what is max weight ? i mean specified for these SWB 35-10s 4x4 ? (as opposed to a definition of 'max weight' !!). Put mine on a weghbridge today, comes in at 4,200kgs if I have all liquid tanks full.
Have i reached max yet ?????? mmmmmmm

OK down to specifics, as a test i did disconnect the push rod that's connected to diff and manually 'tied' it up, to be honest I was guessing a bit and I was not sure if I was wedging it open or shut !!! anyhow, did that about 2 months back and to be fair I can't say I noticed any difference. Which I guess would indicate what Nigel says with regards to weight already keeping valve open.
So conclusion i think is to leave connected for now, but if it ever snaps or buggers I think I will be ok to wedge open.

BUT BUT BUt - my other issue is the balancing of the pressure front to back (issue being I don't have the chart/table/plate/sticker which shows pressure expected based upon weight).
Tomorrow I change fluid (interesting NIge that you change so regular, it's not something I have ever thought about and no garage has ever suggested to me !) , which will now be part of the bi-annual maintenance jobs.
But, I'm fairly certain that with my weight now known (and probably now different) the pressures between front and back will be 'wrong', ideally, I would like to check and adjust.
I know this garage i'm at tomorrow can test pressure but i need a reference (i.e photo from inside of one of your doors !!!!) to check against.

So, clock's a tickin here guys !!!! i am under truck at 7.30am tomorrow !!

cheers to all
Phil.
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  #6  
Old 20 Nov 2006
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check your web site

Hi Phil, I have mailed you. and I did manage to up load manual if you look on P8 of the brake section the details you require are there! no need for any photos me thinks!

good luck and let us all know the results

Graeme
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  #7  
Old 20 Nov 2006
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I've checked my records - I only changed fluid twice and one of those was when I was working on the brakes using a power bleeder and got carried away - by the time I'd done the job there wasn't any original fluid left in anyway!!

It's now a common service procedure to change fluid but this has arisen in recent years due to the advent of ABS braking syastems. As Graeme says, brake fluid is hygroscopic, it absorbs water readily which contaminates it and slowly reduces brake efficiency. However in ABS systems if water is present even in tiny amounts it will cause corrosion on the internal steel parts of the ABS pump = knacked pump = lots of dosh to replace. Hence regular fluid changes. If you don't have ABS it's not so much a problem.

What's max weight, Phil? Now here's another can of worms deserving of a thread of it's own! ''They'' have changed all the wording nowadays but basically we are talking 'Maximum Gross Weight' or 'Max Vehicle Weight', as opposed to 'Kerbside Weight'. The latter is unladen weight of the van plus permanent fittings, the former is van+fuel+load+people: in other words everything in and ready to go. Look on your Plate under the bonnet by the nearside inner wing, it should give the MGW on there. If your truck is a 40.10, the MGW is 4050kg all up, but I believe if it's a 35.10 this may mean it's only allowed 3500kg all-up weight. (Could be wrong, never seen a 35.10!) Now anything over 3.5 tonnes is an HGV in this country, hence the choice of 3.5t rating to keep it in the private tax class. (40.10's can be specially downrated to 3.5t for this reason too.) What is your plated MGW, and is the truck registered PLG? If it's HGV the MGW will be on your registration doc as well. I rather fear that if it's 3500kg MGW on your plate then you have exceeded the max weight even before you've loaded up and climbed in yourself! Hope I'm wrong........

40.10's are all HGV's with tachographs (another can of worms.....) as they are over 3.5 tonnes. But if they are strictly private use only they can be 'private HGV' which is standard car MOT only and a fiver a year cheaper road tax too(!).

Incidentally, the other figure, Max Gross Train (or Combined) Weight, is MGW for the van plus trailer and load if you are towing something.

CS's book Sahara Overland suggests that most breakdowns in the desert are caused by vehicles exceeding the manufacturer's MGW/GVW because they are basically overloaded beyond the design weight of the vehicle's suspension. And lots of camper conversions are heavy to start with. Hope I haven't spoiled your evening...................or bored everyone too much!

Nigel
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  #8  
Old 21 Nov 2006
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Thumbs up Use Silicone Brake Fluid..........

Its expensive to buy - but you only need to buy it once - non hydroscopic - no more corroded pistons/cylinders......its the dogs maracas....

http://www.namrick.co.uk/browse.asp?PCID=18

These guys were the cheapest I could find - and good service.

Worth while doing a full caliper (or wheel cylinder) stripdown and overhaul to empty out all that nasty vegetable oil............I used stainless steel pistons too on the 90 - brakes are better than ever - also handy as Ive parked it up for a while - they wont seize up.

Also great in the clutch.....super smooth.

Cheers
Grif
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  #9  
Old 21 Nov 2006
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Smile Tuesday - been n gone !

Well people, my day of brake fluid and tyre fluid change has come to an end !

Nigel - thanks for info regarding weight, very interesting (not boring atall !), it clarified a slight question I had; I.E my under bonnet tag stated 40.10 but my exterior bodywork logo states 35.10. Now from what you say the 35.10 means 3500kgs MGW, whereas 40.10 gains me another 550kgs.
I'm figuring that this military spec 4x4 is plated at 4050kgs MGW but the original 'std' bodywork is for the bog std turbo daily van rated at 3500kgs.
That's my logic and i reckon it makes sense for me.

Of course the slight issue is that if I top up both my diesel tanks (180litres) and my water tank (100litres) and put the girlfriend on board (won't say !!!) my MGW goes to 4200kgs, ok, yes technically i'm over the 4050 limit, so i'll just run little light on liquids (and maybe leave Angie at home !!).
The ironic problem here though is, you most likely need that stock of liquid when you head of into those shall we say 'out of the way' places, exactly the sort of places where breakdowns ('break'!!) will occur and exactly the last place you need to be stuck.
AHHHH - the dilemas of adventure travel, - 'seat of pants, what pants ? ! !'

so back to todays repairs:

brake fluid was absolutely useless, filthy, knackd, no good, surprising I could ever stop really. All brake fluid now replaced and brakes are working fine (how good ? I'll let you know after my next downhill with my 4200kgs)

tyres - 5 good, but not new n spanking, cooper 235/85 AT. should get me through the snow.

split rims : well it took approx 1 hr per rim for the garage (who have the kit and slightly more knowledge than me), but biggest problem appeared to be initial breaking seal of rim and just getting that first bit flipped up, problem caused by excess corroding (and probably not helped by my painting). Now these rims have all been removed, cleaned and greased a bit the shouldn't (i hope) be such an issue if i need to run a repair in the field.

that table data and balancing of pressure stuff i was worried about?
thanks to the manual supplied by Luke & Graeme (cheers boys) i found info i was after. but with the explanations above regarding load adjuster and function of I realised that adjuster is almost certainly at max open (coz of my weight) and so pressure will be balanced. in other words decided not to spend axtra money checkin !

so, 7 hrs of work (swiss prices), 2 litres or so of brake fluid, 5 decent tyres, 1 new tube, 2 spare s/h tubes, little bit of shopping ('snatch' rope, 9m rated for 8000kgs and a simple but neat 2.4m x 2.5m awning) came to £305.
I hate spending money, but I think I did ok today.

Thanks all for help, suggestions, knowledge, & info.

Liechtenstein tomorrow, via the hilly bits.
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  #10  
Old 26 Nov 2006
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mgw

Iveco dailys 4x4 normally come as 35-10 or 40-10,however the mgw of a 40-10 can be increased from 4050 to 4450kg without any vehicle component changes,If you contact Iveco they will give you contact details for Kingswood who will charge you £225 + vat to alter your log book with dvla and send you a new vehicle plate.

A small price to pay to carry nearly an extra 1/2 ton?! or some peace of mind that a 40-10 is designed to carry at least 4450kg according to iveco.

Remember= extra weight means extra fuel

Last edited by moodybloo; 26 Nov 2006 at 15:28.
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  #11  
Old 27 Nov 2006
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Gross Vehicle Weight

That's interesting, have you actually done that with your Iveco, Moodybloo? I hadn't heard that before but it may explain something. When I bought my 40.10WM the plate said 4050kg but the log book said 4450kg. Odd, I thought. Mine was the only one of the 8 British Paramedic ambulances to have air suspension on the rear. When I asked Iveco they told me the plate was correct, the extra weight allowance shown in the log book was due to the suspension upgrade and put me in touch with the firm who did the conversion for them. This firm agreed, issued me with paperwork and an additional 'conversion' VIN plate to fix next to the original Iveco one, this one showing 4450kg GVW/7450kg GCVW and charged me £100 for the privilege. Hmmm - perhaps it all depends on who you speak to! It does seem strange, once you exceed 3500kg you are in HGV territory anyway so why don't they just rate them all at 4450kg if the truck's suspension can handle it without modification? The next hurdle doesn't come until 7500kg which is the limit for ordinary driving licences.

The one thing we all have to beware of is that if an Iveco or any other similar van is taxed as 'Private Light Goods', I believe you are legally restricted to 3500kg GVW no matter what weight the vehicle is capable of, and no matter what the VIN plate says, because that is the legal maximum allowed for that taxation class. I think a 35.10 is a 40.10 downgraded to 3.5tonnes to get it into the PLG taxation class which makes life much easier than HGV for a vehicle not required to carry over that weight.

If your log book says 'Private HGV' that's the one you want for a private camper using the full VIN plated GVW but not subject to most of the requirements of full Goods HGV. The joke is, it's a fiver cheaper than a PLG tax disc!

Why can't things be simple?

Nigel
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  #12  
Old 29 Nov 2006
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weight

Hi i'm in the process of changing the mgw,But dont really want to spend the money yet.

1 reason for not having all Iveco 4x4's at 4450kg is the new driving licence (1993?) only allows max weight of 3500kg to be driven.

Does the new speed limiters being introduced in jan 07 apply?

Most EU countrys speed limits apply to vehicles over 3500kg.

That opens another can of worms Does all that apply to Iveco's 4x4 registered as motorcaravans?

However i hope to get the ok from the hospital tomorrow,so i can spend my time driving rather than talking about it.

So hope to see you all in maroc soon.
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  #13  
Old 29 Nov 2006
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weighty matters.......

Hoo, yes, licences too. These cans of worms grow daily.

The only thing I go on is in this country Private/HGV and registering your truck as a 'motor caravan' dodges most of the horrible goods HGV laws (hopefully new ones too.....) and generally in the EU if your truck is legal in your home country it should be accepted in the other member states as legal too. We hope!

We had a lot of these technicalities aired on the Yahoo! Iveco4x4 forum a few months back. The usual conclusion is no-one knows for sure,least of all the so-called authorities.

I've been driving mine round Europe since 1998 and never had a problem. But then again, I've never been stopped for a check, either.........!

Nigel
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  #14  
Old 29 Nov 2006
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bloomin heck !

4450kgs --- WOW ! I can buy more stuff !

Very reassuring to know these ivecos are built to take that sort of weight.
Mine is currently classed as the 'private HGV' and rated at the 4050kgs on log book.
For me I don't feel the need to spend another couple hundred quid just yet to get it increased to the 4450kgs. I will be under weight unless full of all liquids and the places where I will be filling up won't have weigh bridge checks, even if it did happen, I just empty my water tank and should be OK.
Good to have the info though (thanks Moodybloo) and when I eventually get back to UK may well have it changed just so to be totally on safe side.

Fuel economy - my iveco amazes me on this, evry time I check it gets an average of between 9 and 10 kms per liter (my mates Landrover gets a measly 6.5 to 7).. I have just now rechecked over this last week since getting my off road tyres fitted (was expecting decrease) I have driven from switzerland right through to vienna via the 'grossglockner' pass. approx 1400kms. Still getting over 9. Very impressive i reckon.

brakes - excellent now. Thanks Gipper for tip regarding silicon brake fluid, sadly not practical to get done this time but maybe next change will justify full strip and clean down and then replace with the silicon.

moodybloo - hope all goes well tomorrow at Hosp and you get the OK. Sadly I aint gonna make Maroc this season, now heading to Istanbul. Thinking seriously of little jaunt through Syria to Jordon beginning say early Feb for about 6 to 8 weeks. - fancy it ??
Of course for anyone with inclination to have bit of adventure; next Spring (leaving Istanbul mid to end April) I am driving through to Mongolia via Turkey, Georgia, Stans route. Probably take say 4 to 5 months.
Anyone interested in coming ?

Phil.
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Old 29 Nov 2006
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Hi Nigel

What 'yahoo 4x4' forum ? got a link ?

Phil.
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