Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > 4 wheels > Equipping the Overland Vehicle
Equipping the Overland Vehicle Vehicle accessories - Making your home away from home comfortable, safe and reliable.
Photo by Daniel Rintz, Himba children, Namibia

The only impossible journey
is the one
you never begin

Photo by Daniel Rintz,
Himba children, Namibia



Overlanders Handbook - everything you need to know, available NOW!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 1 Dec 2003
Chris Scott's Avatar
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,801
bigger intercoolers for tdis

Apart from the cost and the extra component to break, would these be recommended for overlanding without reservation?
It seems like they lower combustion temps which can't be bad.
Overall, do they improve the mpg or do they make it worse?
Would not that extra torque shag the transmission sooner?
AFAIKT, they sound like as neat a solution as turbos were, only simpler.

thanks for your input.

Ch
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dubai
Posts: 192
Chris, I would`nt look at it as an extra component, just a bigger version of an origional companent, yes they might provide more power, but it really is like an increase in torque not just a huge wapping power increase, handy for the long hills when heavily loaded, as for tweaking the fuel and boost pressure I dont know the answer on this for the long term, the larger I/C cools the charge(A good thing), but when you start increasing fuel and boost you will pick up extra power but also increase EGT, so for a long term overland trip I would`nt be sure on this on.

Without doubt, I would contact Richard Turner, at Turner Engineering, he provides the occasional feed back on the LRE and on offroaders rant forum, as well as being renowner in the bussiness as an authority on LR engines, he is very pro standard on his engines and rebuilt so many that over the years that he KNOWS what goes on inside STD and modified LR engines. He also seems very please to genuinely help people, not just sell things to make a profit.

http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk/

Col Campbell

[This message has been edited by Col Campbell (edited 02 December 2003).]
__________________
An aussie escaped from london, now in Dubai.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Wiltshire,UK
Posts: 288
i run with a larger intercooler on my 300Tdi 90. i also run with slightly increased boost and fuelling. although the larger intercooler doesn't seem to give "seat of the pants" extra power (you can achieve the same increase of power just by winding the boost and fuel up with a stock intercooler) its nice to know that i'm being "kind" to my engine by keeping the EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temparatures) down and avoiding melting the piston crowns.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 775
Hi Chris,

Although on paper an intercooler looks like a splendid idea and almost something for nothing, in reality it isn't quite so. To make a noticeable difference, the intercoler has to be big and efficient enough. This is normally achieved by water cooling. An extra cooling circuit is one more thing to break (or leak as most liquid containers fitted to Landrovers). Besides, such an intercooler sitting in front of the engine radiator restricts air flow. Cooler air, hotter engine, what's better - go figure ... A small intercooler can be fitted in other locations, but its effect on performance is always relative to the heat exchanging efficiency.

As they rely mainly on the passage of air through the radiator, intercoolers are more efficient at higher speeds. The extra torque Col mentiones would be handy at the bottom end of the engine performance curve, so again, not a real gain to make a big difference.

A more efficient engine = lower fuel consumption. Again, on paper it sounds right, but if you have all this power on tap, you must be a scrumpy old git not to use it, so don't expect miracles at the pump.

Finally, if the intercooler lowers EGT it is on condition that you use the same amount of fuel which - due to more air being squeezed into the combustion chamber - is now burnt more efficiently. See the previous argument whether the amount of fuel will really remain the same. Or perhaps you give it more boot, hence burn more fuel to make the engine work harder, which brings us round to where we started.

Having said that, I wish to point out that any vehicle is only as good as the sum of parts of which it is built. Making improvements in one department doesn't make other parts preform better. In fact, it often makes it worse (after two turbos blown out due to playing with injection pump and boost settings, I can claim some expertise.)

This is why, having gone down this route myself, I settled the score by swapping a 300Tdi engined LR for a 4.2L 1HDT Landcruiser. I can't even notice it has no intercooler, just as I could not notice the Landrover had one.

------------------
Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info
__________________
----------------
Roman (UK)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 479
I have an Allisport intercooler fitted on my 300TDI. Spent a fair amount of time checking round whether it would be a good idea or not because much as I wanted improved performance, I didn't want to achieve it at the expense of reliability. However from everything I could gather, if one sticks to a basic replacement intercooler, then it functions exactly the same way as the origonal, it doesn't have more parts to go wrong and it simply works more efficiently. It provides a noticable improvement in performance but you have to look for it, its definitely not a radical change. The main useful change is between about 40 - 70 where the increased torque is particularly useful when overtaking , etc. Makes it a bit easier to use. Have steered clear of the other modifications such as increasing boost on the turbo because of concerns about reliability.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dubai
Posts: 192
Roman, can you elaborate on you turbo problems, was it to much boost that led to their demise and if so do you set them up by trail and error or with a pressure gauge.

And with your fuel, did you play with fuel settings with an EGT gauge fitted.

Col
__________________
An aussie escaped from london, now in Dubai.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Chris Scott's Avatar
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,801
What's up, is there nothing good on telly tonight? ;-))

"if one sticks to a basic replacement intercooler, then it functions exactly the same way as the origonal, it doesn't have more parts to go wrong"

This is true (I did not realise LRs already had an ic - or as Romans says - could not tell). But the fact that it needs airflow and blocks the water rad is also a good point

As for meddling with turbo boost pressures - this is a risk with any desert car, even a TLC. The guy I'm thinking of didnt even get from Milan to Marseille before it blew up - and that was a IHDT. (he was a bit flash. so serves him right)

To me big engines are the obvious choice for the desert but I'm just trying to investigate ways of getting more poke from an LR and it seems bigger ics work well. I drove Toby S's 200 in the desert and it was not like any 200 I'd driven before. And for the desert extra torque is most desirable.

The question remains tho, will it shag out the parts downstream quicker? I suppose the answer is yes.

Ch
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dubai
Posts: 192
Chris, I`d say no, as the rest of the drive train is essentially the same as a TD5s and they have a good deal more grunt than a TDI anyway, and they seem to take the power OK.

On the cooling front, I`d prefer to uprate the rad from a 3 to 5 core, so that will help the engine a little more, and anyway I look at it, a cooler charge equates to more efficiency, I`m an aircraft engineer by trade and everything I`ve ever learnt about engines is about altitude, temperature and density, and increasing the charge density does inprove efficiency, agreed if you use the extra power you will burn more fuel, but cruising along from point to point your MPG must improve, and yes at lower speeds you wont get the full added power, but on those long hills not having to change down gears quite so readily when heavily loaded has to be a bonus, the only possible downside I could see is that the turbo might be working a bit harder with the extra air it is now able to push into the engine, but I think that is looking into it a bit to deeply.

Chris any external info you get regaurding this I`d be interested to hear, before the new book comes out.

And yes it certainly is a big tick in the Tojo box have a nice big lazy engine, where you don`t have to worry about all this bollox, pity they can`t quite match the LR fuel consumption.

Col
__________________
An aussie escaped from london, now in Dubai.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 3 Dec 2003
Chris Scott's Avatar
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,801
>"....I`d say no, as the rest of the drive train is essentially the same as a TD5s"

OK, good point. I had a feeling the the broadness of the increase made it less severe anyway.

> "pity they can`t quite match the LR fuel consumption."

You know that's what I used to think (or believe what I read) but I'm rewriting the book on that subject based on my LR travels since edn 1. Sorry to go on but it is just not true in my experience in the desert.

Ch
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 4 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 180
We fitted an Allisport intercooler to our 300Tdi, after lots of soul-searching. There´s no such thing as a free lunch, and of course a bigger charge of air increases power and torque with all the attendant increases in stress on the engine and transmission.

However, there is quite a lot of room for power increases, the 300Tdi is hardly the most stressed engine ever, and the power increase isn´t phenomenal. It is noticeable, though, on our vehicle. Post-turbo temperatures can soar to 130degC, and a good intercooler brings this back down close to ambient (shedding 80% of the turbo heat is achievable).

We left the boost alone, just adjusted the fuel dosage to allow for the increased air. As a result, at low revs when the turbo isn´t "on", if I floor it, it belches quite a bit of black smoke.

Fuel consumption is marginally better *at the same performance levels*. But it uses a lot more fuel when I do choose to use the extra power.

On the whole, I am happy with the decision, so far. In the desert, it is handy to have the extra power when you need it. And most often, we trundle along with just that little bit less throttle than we would have needed without the intercooler.

Incidentally, the intercooler isn´t water cooled, it´s air-on-air (more efficient for our type of vehicles), as are the standard Land Rover ones. So the worst consequence of a *bad* leak would be a bit of a drop in turbo pressure.

There is no downside to the principle of an intercooler as far as I can see, the only real question is whether it´s worth uprating the existing one. For a few hundred quid, mine was worth it. I made sure that the replacement was a drop-in - no modifications necessary, and an original can be put back if something goes wrong (or if I want to).

The air flow through the intercooler and over the engine rad is more than sufficient to keep the thermostat partially closed, even in the summer saharan sand, so I don´t think the engine temperature itself is affected.

Hope this helps,

Michael...


[This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 04 December 2003).]

[This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 04 December 2003).]
__________________
Michael & Sandy
http://www.expeditionoverland.com
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11 Dec 2003
ctc ctc is offline
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posts: 249
Am just having an intercooler fitted in my 300Tdi so have appreciated the various points made.

Picking up on Roman's point re turbos. Is there any merit in fitting a "Turbo Guard" on a 300Tdi (basically a small oil sump which drains into the turbos once you switch the engine off).

Finally leaving the intercooler question to on side. Has anyone tried swapping their 200 or 300 Tdi with the new TGV H.S 2.8 diesel built by International in Brazil. It sounds like the ideal (though expensive) solution to really giving your Land Rover the power it deserves. A shame its not a straight swap though.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12 Dec 2003
Steve Pickford's Avatar
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 994
Re: engine swaps. Has anyone considered fitting one of the Mercedes CDI engines as found in Sprinter vans?

I drove a medium wheel base Sprinter (311 CDI) from Oxford to Milan to Hamburg & back again, with at least 1,000kg on board, in addition to myself & two passengers. At 80mph on the motorway, you could put your foot down & still accelerate. Sticking at 80-85mph gave a consistent 26-28mpg.

I believe the CDI designation means it was a common rail diesel (without a turbo). I mightily impressed with its all round performance, having been used to old Transits & Bedford CF's. I've no idea how this on-road performance would work out in off-road conditions or what the spares availability is like once off the beaten track - just an idea?

Steve
__________________
My photos: www.possu.smugmug.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 775
Hi guys,
Quote:

Is there any merit in fitting a "Turbo Guard" on a 300Tdi ...
CTC,

If you mean the one sold by Agriemach, it's manufactured by a small company in Trinidad or suchlike. Looks like a good idea but has one potential pitfall - as it sits in the middle of the oil circulation path , if it fails due to a crack in the oil lines or otherwise, you will have more to worry about than just the turbo.

Re engine swaps: I had such ideas some time in the past. Search the forum for a tread about Isuzu engines.

------------------
Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info
__________________
----------------
Roman (UK)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12 Dec 2003
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dubai
Posts: 192
I have heard though the grapevine that you can pick up one of the 2.8 Engines for around 1000 USD, by going direct to the source in Brazil, plus the added shipping costs, VAT etc, if you had a few people interested you could probably get the shipping cost down a little to.

Col
__________________
An aussie escaped from london, now in Dubai.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12 Dec 2003
ctc ctc is offline
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posts: 249
Point taken re the Agrimach turbo guard something to watch! One question though, on some turbo engines you can hear the turbo's whizzing round after you switch the engine off (if of course you dont let the engine idle for a while). However on the Land Rover engines (300Tdi)I cant ever hear the turbos. Why is this?

Col, interesting re prices for the International engine in Brazil, much as it would be fun to order a container of them I have not got the shreddies or need at present. If / when the 300Tdi finally dies a death I'll certainly look into it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 
 

Announcements

Thinking about traveling? Not sure about the whole thing? Watch the HU Achievable Dream Video Trailers and then get ALL the information you need to get inspired and learn how to travel anywhere in the world!

Have YOU ever wondered who has ridden around the world? We did too - and now here's the list of Circumnavigators!
Check it out now
, and add your information if we didn't find you.

Next HU Eventscalendar

HU Event and other updates on the HUBB Forum "Traveller's Advisories" thread.
ALL Dates subject to change.

2024:

Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!

Questions about an event? Ask here

HUBBUK: info

See all event details

 
World's most listened to Adventure Motorbike Show!
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)



Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance.

Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.

Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.

Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!


 

What others say about HU...

"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia

"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK

"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia

"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada

"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa

"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia

"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany

Lots more comments here!



Five books by Graham Field!

Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook

"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.



Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!

New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:24.